From fsb-return-10096-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Thu Jul 14 16:46:29 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 40647 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2005 16:46:29 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 14 Jul 2005 16:46:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 10211 invoked by alias); 14 Jul 2005 16:42:26 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 10160 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2005 16:42:19 -0000 To: fsb@crynwr.com Subject: Security Center Advisory From: PayPal Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 11:42:14 -0500 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server1.12tools.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - crynwr.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [99 99] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - email.paypal.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N
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From fsb-return-10097-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Thu Jul 14 17:18:50 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 53827 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2005 17:18:49 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 14 Jul 2005 17:18:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 17448 invoked by alias); 14 Jul 2005 17:18:26 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 17430 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2005 17:18:23 -0000 To: fsb@crynwr.com Subject: Account Review Team From: PayPal Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:18:14 -0500 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server1.12tools.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - crynwr.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [99 99] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - email.paypal.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N

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From fsb-return-10098-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Thu Jul 14 18:57:10 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 11582 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2005 18:57:10 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 14 Jul 2005 18:57:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 5126 invoked by alias); 14 Jul 2005 18:56:46 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 5108 invoked from network); 14 Jul 2005 18:56:44 -0000 To: fsb@crynwr.com Subject: Account Review Team From: PayPal Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:56:42 -0500 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server1.12tools.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - crynwr.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [99 99] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - email.paypal.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N

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From fsb-return-10099-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Fri Jul 15 15:11:06 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 60352 invoked from network); 15 Jul 2005 15:11:05 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 15 Jul 2005 15:11:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 16685 invoked by alias); 15 Jul 2005 15:10:40 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 16677 invoked from network); 15 Jul 2005 15:10:38 -0000 To: fsb Subject: support for a small US college going GNU? Message-Id: From: Joe Corneli Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:10:35 -0500 X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N I've been corresponding a little with the new CIO of my "alma mater" (New College of Florida, a small public "liberal arts" school in Sarasota) about switching the college over to GNU/Linux. It seems iffy, but if whole governments can do it, I think a small, liberal, college ought to be able to achieve the same thing. Furthermore, I think the issue of security should cinch the argument. But the CIO, Erich Matola, points out that switching architectures would require funding. Presumably this is true; does anyone have an idea about the actual numbers here? Are there people out there who can get in a bid that would blow MS/Apple out of the water? From fsb-return-10100-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Fri Jul 15 16:48:32 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 18598 invoked from network); 15 Jul 2005 16:48:31 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 15 Jul 2005 16:48:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 6420 invoked by alias); 15 Jul 2005 16:47:30 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 6403 invoked from network); 15 Jul 2005 16:47:27 -0000 Message-ID: <42D7E872.2020904@roblimo.com> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2005 12:46:42 -0400 From: robin Reply-To: robin@roblimo.com Organization: OSTG User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050404) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Corneli CC: fsb Subject: Re: support for a small US college going GNU? References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus-Scanner: Scanned and found to be clean by AQHost - http://www.AQHost.com X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - queenie.aqhostdns.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - crynwr.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - roblimo.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Joe Corneli wrote: >I've been corresponding a little with the new CIO of my "alma mater" >(New College of Florida, a small public "liberal arts" school in >Sarasota) about switching the college over to GNU/Linux. It seems >iffy, but if whole governments can do it, I think a small, liberal, >college ought to be able to achieve the same thing. Furthermore, I >think the issue of security should cinch the argument. But the CIO, >Erich Matola, points out that switching architectures would require >funding. Presumably this is true; does anyone have an idea about the >actual numbers here? Are there people out there who can get in a bid >that would blow MS/Apple out of the water? > > I can put Erich in touch with members of the local Linux Users Group -- http://suncoastlug.org/ -- which has a number of professional consultants as members, plus *ahem* as a Florida taxpayer (and New College neighbor) I'll happily help him find the most cost-effective solution myself. Robin 'Roblimo' Miller Editor in Chief, OSTG Bradenton, Florida From fsb-return-10101-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Fri Jul 15 23:33:43 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 88320 invoked from network); 15 Jul 2005 23:33:42 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 15 Jul 2005 23:33:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 1630 invoked by alias); 15 Jul 2005 23:33:18 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 1622 invoked from network); 15 Jul 2005 23:33:17 -0000 Message-ID: From: "service" To: Subject: PayPal Account (KMM15704117V21840L0KM) Date: Fri, 15 Jul 05 20:27:16 GMT X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.503 (Entity 5.501) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="AD1.D_...3" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --AD1.D_...3 Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A=0A=0A=0A

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=0A=0A=0A=0A --AD1.D_...3-- From fsb-return-10102-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Sat Jul 16 08:53:13 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 56044 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2005 08:53:13 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 16 Jul 2005 08:53:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 8527 invoked by alias); 16 Jul 2005 08:51:36 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 8386 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2005 08:50:56 -0000 Message-ID: From: "service" To: Subject: PayPal Account (KMM15704117V21840L0KM) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 05 12:44:55 GMT X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B8.FA2C74D_DF75E.98..3._" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --B8.FA2C74D_DF75E.98..3._ Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A=0A=0A=0A

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=0A=0A=0A=0A --B8.FA2C74D_DF75E.98..3._-- From fsb-return-10103-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Sat Jul 16 09:54:23 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 66548 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2005 09:54:23 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 16 Jul 2005 09:54:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 17493 invoked by alias); 16 Jul 2005 09:53:57 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 17486 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2005 09:53:56 -0000 Message-ID: <30-y2hd-2o7y3f-9$l03-dp4$5350o@w26hz3y26n> From: "service" To: Subject: PayPal Account (KMM15704117V21840L0KM) Date: Sat, 16 Jul 05 10:46:55 GMT X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.52f) Business MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=".D.1.A_D_5..FB4._DD0F" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --.D.1.A_D_5..FB4._DD0F Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A=0A=0A=0A

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=0A=0A=0A=0A --.D.1.A_D_5..FB4._DD0F-- From fsb-return-10104-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Sat Jul 16 21:25:34 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 34640 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2005 21:25:34 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 16 Jul 2005 21:25:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 3034 invoked by alias); 16 Jul 2005 21:25:07 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 3025 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2005 21:25:06 -0000 Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2005 14:24:39 -0700 From: "Karsten M. Self" To: fsb@crynwr.com Subject: Re: support for a small US college going GNU? Message-ID: <20050716212439.GB26538@localhost> Mail-Followup-To: fsb@crynwr.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="OwLcNYc0lM97+oe1" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Debian-GNU-Linux: Rocks X-no-disclaimers: All email disclaimers are specifically and explicitly rejected: http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/stupid-disclaimers/ X-Kuro5hin-cabal: There is no K5 cabal X-GPG-Fingerprint: 5CAA 226D 2CCC 0A2A A502 D09E 79F1 BCE3 8DE4 D38E X-uptime: 23:16:14 up 50 days, 5:28, 20 users, load average: 10.33, 9.82, 9.81 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Sender: "Karsten M. Self" X-ELNK-Trace: fb8b5507a77b41ab6f36dc87813833b2494a2b12faa40c43733dd2736da3c3c43facf086b65e72d3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.81.216.112 X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N --OwLcNYc0lM97+oe1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable on Fri, Jul 15, 2005 at 10:10:35AM -0500, Joe Corneli (jcorneli@math.utexas= =2Eedu) wrote: >=20 > I've been corresponding a little with the new CIO of my "alma mater" > (New College of Florida, a small public "liberal arts" school in > Sarasota) about switching the college over to GNU/Linux. It seems > iffy, but if whole governments can do it, I think a small, liberal, > college ought to be able to achieve the same thing. Furthermore, I > think the issue of security should cinch the argument. But the CIO, > Erich Matola, points out that switching architectures would require > funding. Presumably this is true; does anyone have an idea about the > actual numbers here? Are there people out there who can get in a bid > that would blow MS/Apple out of the water? Nothing specific, though I've had similar questions myself. I worked for a while with a non-profit which was the victim^Wbeneficiary of Microsoft bribes^Wlargess, in the form of a $100m 5 year grant. Actually, that broke down to some $88m "worth" of software and materials (some of the training and course guides were actually useful), and $12m in actual cash. That last being distributed over some 3000 locations over five years works out to about $800 per location per year. Significantly less than the cost of rooting out viruses and spyware even at reduced rates.... The experience did suggest though that a deal, even if only nominal dollars were involved (say: 2500 desktops of RH / SuSE "valued" at $200 per =3D=3D $1m), might smooth the ruffled feathers of administrators and politicos otherwise having to answer to why they "left all the Microsoft money on the table". Add in some real value -- professional services, support, a few servers -- and you've got the makings of something which might actually fly from both the grantor and grantee perspective. IBM's the obvious source of this, should they be willing. One problem was trying to figure out how to approach them on this sort of matter. The other thing to keep in mind is that any migration should be phased. IBM's got a pretty sane Redbook for desktop GNU/Linux migrations: http://publib-b.boulder.ibm.com/redbooks.nsf/RedbookAbstracts/sg246380.= html?Open 1. Make the case. Identify current problem areas with campus IT services, proposed Free Software solutions, and likely benefits. Keep in mind disadvantages as well. 2. Start with specific apps (on 'Doze boxes) which can be cross-platform, services and servers, and technical / limited use desktops. 3. Identify migration hurdles. AD, calendar apps, financial apps, and single-platform applications are the most difficult to move. AD can largely be addressed by LDAP, though the situation is more rough-and-tumble. =20 =20 Multiple web-based calendaring applications exist and are the likely best option. Several of these are very popular among academic institutions, including one product now marketed by Oracle, the Oracle Collaboration Suite. Single-platform applications, usually either financial apps or domain specific (e.g.: student management, instructor gradebook, library cataloging) are a special case and should be supported in place and/or transitioned independently. 4. Try to change one thing at a time. Transitioning first to cross-platform apps, *then* to another platform, means that you can iron out the application wrinkles first, and the OS issues later. =20 There's a school of thought which says you want to minimize the duration of change for any given user group, in which case, it's best to make a set of transitions (apps, OS, etc.) together, rather than spreading the pain over a period of months. Using a phased transition with 6/9/12 month steps, it should be possible to minimize impact points and match them to the academic calendar, preferably scheduling changes to commit at the onset of breaks rather than, say, at the beginning of the academic year, with all that that entails. Start too, with a small group of technically adept users likely to welcome the change. CS or other technical departments are probably your best bet here. 4. Have a way out. There are various ways in which to trial applications and configurations. =20 =20 Remote access means you can support GNU/Linux configurations over XDMCP, VNC, or similar techniques. =20 =20 Legacy MS Windows also offers remote access options, though with very little of the flexibilty offered by GNU/Linux. Tools such as rdesktop and VNC can allow as-needed access to an MS Windows box, and possibly Windows Terminal Services (WTS). Another option is virtualization software such as Xen and VMWare. The former actually runs on base hardware, partitioning it amongst several guest OSs. VMWare can run in server (base HW) or workstation (user-space application) mode. Both allow access to multiple environments and configurations. While not ideal, for users with legitimate needs to multiple operating environments, they're powerful tools. 5. Examine your successes and failures and update the transition plan accordingly Peace. --=20 Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety most likely voted for Bush. - Slashdot sig. --OwLcNYc0lM97+oe1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC2XsXefG8443k044RAlKiAJ4kZ4h4cCpFxOT3sACdM5H/EBpXaACeIrqi KGK1Fa5Gw4R2abWRVSvsHD0= =/9w9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --OwLcNYc0lM97+oe1-- From fsb-return-10105-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Mon Jul 18 21:13:47 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 17533 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2005 21:13:47 -0000 Received: from ns.crynwr.com (HELO ns1.crynwr.com) (192.203.178.2) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 18 Jul 2005 21:13:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 29387 invoked by alias); 18 Jul 2005 21:13:07 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 29372 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2005 21:13:03 -0000 X-SEF-Processed: 5_0_0_713__2005_07_18_15_12_20 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: support for a small US college going GNU? Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:12:24 -0600 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: support for a small US college going GNU? Thread-Index: AcWKTP7JbM34iDhSROCRdTBEDk7ZogBj/DBQ From: "Anderson, Kelly" To: X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N One possibly useful approach to having a way out (especially for the odd=0D= =0Aapplication that is only available on Windows) would be to use Citrix=0D= =0AMetaframe, and set up Windows servers that could be accessed through=0D=0A= Linux desktop systems (That sounds a little backwards than normal,=0D=0Adoe= sn't it :-)=0D=0A=0D=0AAnyway, this would allow users to access Window's ap= plications they=0D=0Amight depend upon without requireing a Window's box.=0D= =0A=0D=0ACitrix Metaframe is similar to Microsoft Terminal Services, but it= 's=0D=0Amore highly configurable and manageable.=0D=0A=0D=0A-Kelly=20=0D=0A=0D= =0A-----Original Message-----=0D=0AFrom: Karsten M. Self [mailto:kmself@ix.= netcom.com]=20=0D=0ASent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 3:25 PM=0D=0ATo: fsb@cryn= wr.com=0D=0ASubject: Re: support for a small US college going GNU=3F=0D=0A=0D= =0A=0D=0A 4. Have a way out. There are various ways in which to trial=0D= =0A applications and configurations. =20=0D=0A =20=0D=0A Remo= te access means you can support GNU/Linux configurations over=0D=0A XD= MCP, VNC, or similar techniques. =20=0D=0A =20=0D=0A Legacy MS Win= dows also offers remote access options, though with=0D=0A very little = of the flexibilty offered by GNU/Linux. Tools such as=0D=0A rdesktop = and VNC can allow as-needed access to an MS Windows box,=0D=0A and pos= sibly Windows Terminal Services (WTS).=0D=0A=0D=0A Another option is v= irtualization software such as Xen and VMWare.=0D=0A The former actual= ly runs on base hardware, partitioning it amongst=0D=0A several guest = OSs. VMWare can run in server (base HW) or=0D=0A workstation (user-sp= ace application) mode. Both allow access to=0D=0A multiple environmen= ts and configurations. While not ideal, for=0D=0A users with legitima= te needs to multiple operating environments,=0D=0A they're powerful to= ols.=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0AE-Mail messages may contain v= iruses, worms, or other malicious code. By reading the message and opening = any attachments, the recipient accepts full responsibility for taking prote= ctive action against such code. Sender is not liable for any loss or damage= arising from this message.=0D=0A=0D=0AThe information in this e-mail is co= nfidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the add= ressee(s). Access to this e-mail by anyone else is unauthorized.=0D=0A From fsb-return-10106-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Mon Jul 18 21:32:30 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 24776 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2005 21:32:30 -0000 Received: from ns.crynwr.com (HELO ns1.crynwr.com) (192.203.178.2) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 18 Jul 2005 21:32:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 31990 invoked by alias); 18 Jul 2005 21:32:04 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 31978 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2005 21:32:02 -0000 Message-ID: <42DC2116.7060502@codeweavers.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:37:26 -0500 From: Jeremy White User-Agent: Debian Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050402) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Anderson, Kelly" CC: fsb@crynwr.com References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.251.189.140 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jwhite@codeweavers.com Subject: Re: support for a small US college going GNU? X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on mail X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.7 required=3.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.2 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail.codeweavers.com) X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N In my rather biased opinion, another key tool is Wine (www.winehq.org). Wine lets you run Windows programs, unmodified, and they run as though they were native Linux applications. The challenge with Wine has always been that it's a very ambitious project, and there are often warts or problems in running any given application (if you can get it running at all). However, a certain friendly Free Software company has been working its heart out to gradually improve Wine, so that it is increasingly robust. Further, we're finding that increasingly, even if we have to do work on a service basis to improve Wine to run an application, Wine can still be more cost effective than Citrix. Cheers, Jeremy Anderson, Kelly wrote: > One possibly useful approach to having a way out (especially for the odd > application that is only available on Windows) would be to use Citrix > Metaframe, and set up Windows servers that could be accessed through > Linux desktop systems (That sounds a little backwards than normal, > doesn't it :-) > > Anyway, this would allow users to access Window's applications they > might depend upon without requireing a Window's box. > > Citrix Metaframe is similar to Microsoft Terminal Services, but it's > more highly configurable and manageable. > > -Kelly > > -----Original Message----- > From: Karsten M. Self [mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com] > Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 3:25 PM > To: fsb@crynwr.com > Subject: Re: support for a small US college going GNU? > > > 4. Have a way out. There are various ways in which to trial > applications and configurations. > > Remote access means you can support GNU/Linux configurations over > XDMCP, VNC, or similar techniques. > > Legacy MS Windows also offers remote access options, though with > very little of the flexibilty offered by GNU/Linux. Tools such as > rdesktop and VNC can allow as-needed access to an MS Windows box, > and possibly Windows Terminal Services (WTS). > > Another option is virtualization software such as Xen and VMWare. > The former actually runs on base hardware, partitioning it amongst > several guest OSs. VMWare can run in server (base HW) or > workstation (user-space application) mode. Both allow access to > multiple environments and configurations. While not ideal, for > users with legitimate needs to multiple operating environments, > they're powerful tools. > > > > > > > E-Mail messages may contain viruses, worms, or other malicious code. By reading the message and opening any attachments, the recipient accepts full responsibility for taking protective action against such code. Sender is not liable for any loss or damage arising from this message. > > The information in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee(s). Access to this e-mail by anyone else is unauthorized. > > From fsb-return-10107-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Mon Jul 18 21:41:27 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 27464 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2005 21:41:27 -0000 Received: from ns.crynwr.com (HELO ns1.crynwr.com) (192.203.178.2) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 18 Jul 2005 21:41:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 683 invoked by alias); 18 Jul 2005 21:41:02 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 676 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2005 21:41:01 -0000 X-SEF-Processed: 5_0_0_713__2005_07_18_15_40_20 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: support for a small US college going GNU? Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 15:40:28 -0600 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: support for a small US college going GNU? Thread-Index: AcWL4CL+EwSN2kICQuKY025XeEG4AwAANgHw From: "Anderson, Kelly" To: "Jeremy White" Cc: X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N If you can get the programs you care about to run under wine, that is=0D=0A= clearly a superior approach than using Citrix on many levels. The=0D=0Adown= side is increased technical support and IT costs to get there.=0D=0A=0D=0AN= onetheless, I think that you could currently get more to run with=0D=0ACitr= ix than with Wine. Depending upon the technical expertise of your=0D=0Auser= s, Citrix is probably easier for them to use at this point.=0D=0A=0D=0A-Kel= ly=20=0D=0A=0D=0A-----Original Message-----=0D=0AFrom: Jeremy White [mailto= :jwhite@codeweavers.com]=20=0D=0ASent: Monday, July 18, 2005 3:37 PM=0D=0AT= o: Anderson, Kelly=0D=0ACc: fsb@crynwr.com=0D=0ASubject: Re: support for a = small US college going GNU=3F=0D=0A=0D=0AIn my rather biased opinion, anoth= er key tool is Wine (www.winehq.org).=0D=0AWine lets you run Windows progra= ms, unmodified, and they run as though=0D=0Athey were native Linux applicat= ions. The challenge with Wine has always=0D=0Abeen that it's a very ambiti= ous project, and there are often warts or=0D=0Aproblems in running any give= n application (if you can get it running at=0D=0Aall).=0D=0A=0D=0AHowever, = a certain friendly Free Software company has been working its=0D=0Aheart ou= t to gradually improve Wine, so that it is increasingly robust.=0D=0AFurthe= r, we're finding that increasingly, even if we have to do work on=0D=0Aa se= rvice basis to improve Wine to run an application, Wine can still be=0D=0Am= ore cost effective than Citrix.=0D=0A=0D=0ACheers,=0D=0A=0D=0AJeremy=0D=0A=0D= =0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0AE-Mail messages may contain viruses, worms, or o= ther malicious code. By reading the message and opening any attachments, th= e recipient accepts full responsibility for taking protective action agains= t such code. Sender is not liable for any loss or damage arising from this = message.=0D=0A=0D=0AThe information in this e-mail is confidential and may = be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee(s). Access t= o this e-mail by anyone else is unauthorized.=0D=0A From fsb-return-10108-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Tue Jul 19 01:20:11 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 5689 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2005 01:20:11 -0000 Received: from ns.crynwr.com (HELO ns1.crynwr.com) (192.203.178.2) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 19 Jul 2005 01:20:11 -0000 Received: (qmail 28922 invoked by alias); 19 Jul 2005 01:19:49 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 28916 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2005 01:19:48 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 216.203.201.137 Message-ID: <002b01c58bff$eb7127b0$010aa8c0@cylon> From: "David Kaufman" To: "fsb" References: Subject: Re: support for a small US college going GNU? Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:19:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Hi Joe, Joe Corneli wrote: > I've been corresponding a little with the new CIO of my "alma mater" > (New College of Florida, a small public "liberal arts" school in > Sarasota) about switching the college over to GNU/Linux [...] the CIO, > Erich Matola, points out that switching architectures would require > funding. Presumably this is true; Of course. Not switching requires funding, too. Funds are used to periodically upgrade staff PC's in different departments at different times, adding memory, more storage, or completely new machines, as the older ones become too old to be useful. Funds are expended to upgrade those same PC's to more recent versions of Windows, as this user needs some new feature or that one needs some new program that is not avilable on the older version of Windows. Ask the CIO to ask the CFO for a report of past expenses, per year, for PC hardware upgrades and new copies of whichever Windows Upgrade was new that year. Then explain to them that Linux upgrades are free and, since Linux tolerates older hardware far longer than Windows does, all those O/S upgrades won't necessitate corresponding *hardware* upgrades to battle the "my PC got slow" reports that come in after the XP upgrades go out. Total the money they will save in one year *not* having to buy on Windows licenses and, say a (conservative) third of the PC workstation upgrade expenses that year together, and see if that isn't enough to cover the consultants needed to implement the switchover, train users *and* maintain servers with some change left over. Figure out if the break-even point is one year or two years, before the savings really start to kick in. If you find that the Windows license expenses are (curiously) far too small to account for all the windows machines in use (because they don't "track those closely enough") or because they "just use the O/S's that come with the new PC's" and then "share" a few upgrade CD's among them all later on as needed, offer to walk around with him and take a quick count of the number of Windows machines *running* XP or Server 2003 as compared to the number of machines that were purchased *with* those latest versions of Windows, plus the number of retail Windows upgrades they actually bought, and you can quickly see out how much it would cost for them to "get into compliance" with their current use of Windows licenses, were they to need to do so in a hurry, as per the audit agreements they've agreed to, by merely tearing open Windows shrinkwrap. Be sure to point out that most, if not all, corporate IT departments and small businesses also find that they have easily, even unintentionally fallen out of compliance because it is nearly impossible to track, and MS licenses seldom enforced. But ask them, why run an O/S that has such a high legal risk attached to it? One that has only *seemed* affordable because all the staff you hire (and in fact the industry in general, and some whole nations) think nothing at all of pirating it on a regular and systematic basis? Not mentioning any names, at most of the school and corporate IT departments I've seen... that getting-into-compliance number is a truly scary one, especially to their lawyers. Lawyers, by the way, who will be fully on board with funding the switch sooner rather than later, once made aware of the risks that are being taken. Perhaps not so much just a few years ago, but nowadays I'd think the cost of switching to any operating system that is free as in BSA.org, would be CFO and Legal no-brainer, even if not already a CIO priority. -dave From fsb-return-10109-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Tue Jul 19 01:49:03 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 15768 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2005 01:49:03 -0000 Received: from ns.crynwr.com (HELO ns1.crynwr.com) (192.203.178.2) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 19 Jul 2005 01:49:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 32755 invoked by alias); 19 Jul 2005 01:48:43 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 32739 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2005 01:48:40 -0000 To: Joe Corneli Cc: fsb Subject: Re: support for a small US college going GNU? References: Organization: The XEmacs Project From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 10:48:36 +0900 In-Reply-To: (Joe Corneli's message of "Fri, 15 Jul 2005 10:10:35 -0500") Message-ID: <87ek9vd0qz.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) XEmacs/21.5 (corn, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N >>>>> "Joe" == Joe Corneli writes: Joe> Are there people out there who can get in a bid that would Joe> blow MS/Apple out of the water? That depends on what your goals are. There are several kinds of uses involved: 1. Corporate communications (marketing, etc) -- they should be using OSS on Unix anyway, everybody with a competent :-) staff does. 2. Internal network services (intranet, email, mailing lists, etc) -- ditto. 3. Student office apps (including unusual stuff like Mathematica, the point is that the "protocol" for communicating with profs is hardcopy). 4. Finance/registrar -- colleges have weird budgeting and reporting requirements. Odds are high that these departments are running idiosyncratic software, and the odds that they own no rights to it are worrisomely high. 5. Educational systems (ie, class- or department-specific software for tutoring, doing & collecting homework, testing). A lot of this stuff is written in Visual Basic. Again, property rights are a problem (== if you don't own it, reproducing functionality is expensive). 6. Faculty office apps (ie, research and teaching materials development, including presentation software). 1 and 2 are easy. You're likely to get strong resistance to 3 from students and parents who equate education with training in clerical speed and accuracy. If professors are already accepting homework and reports in electronic form, they are very likely to resist any change in 3. 4 and 5 are probably expensive, and you'll need vendors that the president and provost trust a lot. 6, well, this is a matter of academic freedom (at least, it will be presented that way by the AAUP), and professors are the most intellectually lazy mammals there are (I know from introspection ;-). Good luck. If I were you, I'd push the reliability, security, and low cost of maintenance of the open source solutions for 1 and 2. Lobby the staff. Point out that it gets ever easier (and more reliable and cost-effective) to outsource maintenance of homogeneous Microsoft installations, while Unix admin provides a lot more growth opportunity for the "general handyman" types who populate small organization IT staffs. Be careful about that; if it's a good liberal arts college, they may very well be writing a lot of the VB apps mentioned in 5 above, in which case the good ones already pretty secure, and moving to wxPython or the like is a non-negligible overhead cost for them. -- School of Systems and Information Engineering http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp University of Tsukuba Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN Ask not how you can "do" free software business; ask what your business can "do for" free software. From fsb-return-10110-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Tue Jul 19 03:43:55 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 55383 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2005 03:43:55 -0000 Received: from ns.crynwr.com (HELO ns1.crynwr.com) (192.203.178.2) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 19 Jul 2005 03:43:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 13429 invoked by alias); 19 Jul 2005 03:43:31 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 13423 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2005 03:43:30 -0000 To: "David Kaufman" Cc: "fsb" Subject: Re: support for a small US college going GNU? References: <002b01c58bff$eb7127b0$010aa8c0@cylon> Organization: The XEmacs Project From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:43:25 +0900 In-Reply-To: <002b01c58bff$eb7127b0$010aa8c0@cylon> (David Kaufman's message of "Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:19:27 -0400") Message-ID: <87wtnnbgv6.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) XEmacs/21.5 (corn, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N >>>>> "David" == David Kaufman writes: David> Be sure to point out that most, if not all, corporate IT David> departments and small businesses also find that they have David> easily, even unintentionally fallen out of compliance David> because it is nearly impossible to track, and MS licenses David> seldom enforced. But ask them, why run an O/S that has David> such a high legal risk attached to it? This is a good point, but you really shouldn't push it to the point of calling it a "no-brainer". The fact is that most people are most of the time out of compliance with several of the contracts and regulatory regimes they are subject to (think "IRS", "OSHA", and "EPA"---I'll bet most of the used reagents in the chemistry lab go directly into the town sewers, for example), and regularly shoulder substantial legal risk (in the educational sector, simply hiring a person of either gender exposes you to high legal risk; heck, assigning an "F" grade does!) Linux also carries substantial legal risk, including to users, as SCO made us aware. Even FSF-owned software carries some legal risk, as the FSF does even less checking than Microsoft does. Instead, they get indemnification from contributors and waivers from employers---but if upstream screwed up, that protects only the FSF, and only financially (it doesn't protect them from having to cease distribution). So legal risk is part of the system. It's simply not possible to avoid it; you can only manage it. Here that means using the strategies you describe, of course, but I would definitely present it in a cost-benefit framework, not a "no-brainer" framework. If the compliance costs add up as fast as you think they will, it would be a no-brainer, of course. But they may not, especially if the goal is a thorough purge of proprietary software, but some departments (finance, registrar, CS labs, even the main web site) happen to be in a good situation compliance-wise. Also, what you're likely to find is that the biggest compliance costs are in precisely the areas where you need a lot of cooperation from many individuals to achieve either compliance or migration. It's not obvious which they'll choose (although my bet is that, absent persuasive advocacy, most students, parents, and faculty will prefer compliance at moderate cost per person). Finally, you need to address the "SCO risk of OSS", which is easy enough. Yes, SCO shows that even OSS can be risky---but look who was the main defendent: IBM, which is the champion at management of intellectual property. So such frivolous lawsuits are simply unavoidable.[1] And when there's really a case, there's no particular reason to suppose open source is more risky on that account than closed source is. The risks are different, of course; in proprietary software you'll see an across the board price increase to cover royalties, while open source will have to remove the feature, even cease distribution entirely. I doubt you want to advertise that last fact, though. Footnotes: [1] Unless you subscribe to the "Microsoft did it" conspiracy theories, in which case using Windows _would_ be the best preventative. -- School of Systems and Information Engineering http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp University of Tsukuba Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN Ask not how you can "do" free software business; ask what your business can "do for" free software. From fsb-return-10111-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Tue Jul 19 05:18:20 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 89866 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2005 05:18:20 -0000 Received: from ns.crynwr.com (HELO ns1.crynwr.com) (192.203.178.2) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 19 Jul 2005 05:18:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 25646 invoked by alias); 19 Jul 2005 05:17:57 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 25638 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2005 05:17:56 -0000 Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 22:17:41 -0700 From: "Karsten M. Self" To: fsb@crynwr.com Subject: Re: support for a small US college going GNU? Message-ID: <20050719051741.GA5350@localhost> Mail-Followup-To: fsb@crynwr.com References: <42DC2116.7060502@codeweavers.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42DC2116.7060502@codeweavers.com> X-Debian-GNU-Linux: Rocks X-no-disclaimers: All email disclaimers are specifically and explicitly rejected: http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/stupid-disclaimers/ X-Kuro5hin-cabal: There is no K5 cabal X-GPG-Fingerprint: 5CAA 226D 2CCC 0A2A A502 D09E 79F1 BCE3 8DE4 D38E X-uptime: 18:51:45 up 1 day, 14:47, 8 users, load average: 0.29, 0.49, 0.66 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Sender: "Karsten M. Self" X-ELNK-Trace: fb8b5507a77b41ab6f36dc87813833b2494a2b12faa40c43a34fc1f992faeb35e71969446893cf7e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.81.221.238 X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N --cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable on Mon, Jul 18, 2005 at 04:37:26PM -0500, Jeremy White (jwhite@codeweavers.= com) wrote: > Anderson, Kelly wrote: > > On Saturday, July 16, 2005, Karsten M. Self escribed: > > >=20 > > > 4. Have a way out. There are various ways in which to trial > > > applications and configurations. =20 > > > =20 > > > Remote access means you can support GNU/Linux configurations over > > > XDMCP, VNC, or similar techniques. =20 > > > =20 > > > Legacy MS Windows also offers remote access options, though with > > > very little of the flexibilty offered by GNU/Linux. Tools such = as > > > rdesktop and VNC can allow as-needed access to an MS Windows box, > > > and possibly Windows Terminal Services (WTS). > > >=20 > > > Another option is virtualization software such as Xen and VMWare. > > > The former actually runs on base hardware, partitioning it among= st > > > several guest OSs. VMWare can run in server (base HW) or > > > workstation (user-space application) mode. Both allow access to > > > multiple environments and configurations. While not ideal, for > > > users with legitimate needs to multiple operating environments, > > > they're powerful tools. > > One possibly useful approach to having a way out (especially for the > > odd application that is only available on Windows) would be to use > > Citrix Metaframe, and set up Windows servers that could be accessed > > through Linux desktop systems (That sounds a little backwards than > > normal, doesn't it :-) My understanding is that WTS largely accomplishes what CMF does, at least technically. I'm not sure what the licensing issues are, though I'm pretty sure they're blecherous. Microsoft have repeatedly tried to introduce clauses to the effect that you cannot access a running instance of legacy MS Windows unless that's what's running directly in front of you. =20 > > Citrix Metaframe is similar to Microsoft Terminal Services, but it's > > more highly configurable and manageable. =20 Any cost figures? As that's a large part of the equation here. The neat thing about WTS is that it's fast and simple, and for the user who only needs access to a couple of legacy apps, it works pretty well. > In my rather biased opinion, another key tool is Wine > (www.winehq.org). Wine lets you run Windows programs, unmodified, and > they run as though they were native Linux applications. The challenge > with Wine has always been that it's a very ambitious project, and > there are often warts or problems in running any given application (if > you can get it running at all). Wine's slick stuff. I'm not sure that it's a general solution though. It can certainly be assessed on a case-by-case basis. The upside is that, when it does work, applications run within the context of a GNU/Linux session, and generally it's possible for MS Windows and Linux apps to interact with one another. A lot of apps are only partially supported (if at all), though and my long experience with a number of cross-platform compatibility tools is that most of them introduce quirks and annoyances. A native app is preferable to one supported via compatibility environments, and even cross-platform apps (say, Firefox, as a widespread example, SAS as one I'm pretty familiar with) tend to show quirks and/or favoritism. This is among the reasons I suggested virtualization and remote access. I've found that giving an application its own (real or virtual) native environment to work in tends to work better, at least for that app. That said: I toy with Wine a bit, I don't use it extensively, and I don't have any legacy MS Windows apps of note that I use on any significant basis. I've got Sim City 2000 and MSIE 6.0 running via Wine (the former has audio quirks, latter is highly unstable), and it sorta works, but it's not like being there. So: not to discourage anyone from trying Wine (the price is right), but scale expectations accordingly. =20 > However, a certain friendly Free Software company has been working its > heart out to gradually improve Wine, so that it is increasingly > robust. Whodat? /me checks senders email address... Ah.... And here I thought you were manufacturing cryptographic pillowcases for the Countess de la Zeur.... ;-) Anyhow, the upshot is that for compatibility, you've got a number of options, and they're not exclusive: - Find a native port of a legacy MS Windows app (e.g.: Firefox, OOo). - Find equivalent functionality in an alternate native application (e.g.: Gimp vs. Photoshop (flames to /dev/null)) - Run the legacy MS Windows app remotely (Citrix, WTS, VNC) and access it from GNU/Linux (rdesktop, VNC). - Run the legacy MS Windows app within a compatibility environment (WINE). - Run the legacy MS Windows application within an emulated / virtualized environment (VMWare, qemu, Xen). Peace. --=20 Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Last night we said a great many things. You said I was to do the thinking for both of us. Well, I've done a lot of it since then and it all adds up to one thing - Casablanca --cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC3Iz1efG8443k044RAgfKAJ9RAxwZuOxN++DH4VYUxJfQ6G4b3wCeKpaf 972igRKh9jlm2vWIxujpREE= =ZF2G -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --cNdxnHkX5QqsyA0e-- From fsb-return-10112-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Tue Jul 19 07:18:43 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 13896 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2005 07:18:43 -0000 Received: from ns.crynwr.com (HELO ns1.crynwr.com) (192.203.178.2) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 19 Jul 2005 07:18:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 6910 invoked by alias); 19 Jul 2005 07:17:28 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 6904 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2005 07:17:27 -0000 Reply-To: From: "Chris Maeda" To: "'Karsten M. Self'" , Subject: RE: support for a small US college going GNU? Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 03:16:52 -0400 Message-ID: <00ad01c58c31$d6280400$0763050a@madcat> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 In-Reply-To: <20050719051741.GA5350@localhost> Importance: Normal X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Citrix vs WTS -- Citrix appears to support Linux clients while I'm willing to bet that WTS does not. If the app is mission critical (and therefore not easily substituted), then Citrix is really the only viable approach. You would be nuts to bet the farm on Wine in its current state, and running the app in VMWare requires you to buy a Windows license and a VMWare license, which ends up being more expensive. -----Original Message----- From: Karsten M. Self [mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 1:18 AM To: fsb@crynwr.com Subject: Re: support for a small US college going GNU? Anyhow, the upshot is that for compatibility, you've got a number of options, and they're not exclusive: - Find a native port of a legacy MS Windows app (e.g.: Firefox, OOo). - Find equivalent functionality in an alternate native application (e.g.: Gimp vs. Photoshop (flames to /dev/null)) - Run the legacy MS Windows app remotely (Citrix, WTS, VNC) and access it from GNU/Linux (rdesktop, VNC). - Run the legacy MS Windows app within a compatibility environment (WINE). - Run the legacy MS Windows application within an emulated / virtualized environment (VMWare, qemu, Xen). From fsb-return-10113-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Tue Jul 19 07:31:45 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 17446 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2005 07:31:45 -0000 Received: from ns.crynwr.com (HELO ns1.crynwr.com) (192.203.178.2) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 19 Jul 2005 07:31:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 8630 invoked by alias); 19 Jul 2005 07:31:24 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 8603 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2005 07:31:22 -0000 Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 00:31:12 -0700 From: "Karsten M. Self" To: fsb@crynwr.com Subject: Re: support for a small US college going GNU? Message-ID: <20050719073112.GP20789@localhost> Mail-Followup-To: fsb@crynwr.com References: <20050719051741.GA5350@localhost> <00ad01c58c31$d6280400$0763050a@madcat> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="iEWWOZ/QYGWEaBRW" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <00ad01c58c31$d6280400$0763050a@madcat> X-Debian-GNU-Linux: Rocks X-no-disclaimers: All email disclaimers are specifically and explicitly rejected: http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/stupid-disclaimers/ X-Kuro5hin-cabal: There is no K5 cabal X-GPG-Fingerprint: 5CAA 226D 2CCC 0A2A A502 D09E 79F1 BCE3 8DE4 D38E X-uptime: 14:42:17 up 10:37, 5 users, load average: 1.10, 0.86, 0.49 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Sender: "Karsten M. Self" X-ELNK-Trace: fb8b5507a77b41ab6f36dc87813833b2494a2b12faa40c43fa90b8f5d5a59f38c35931f2e3d40110350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.81.218.16 X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N --iEWWOZ/QYGWEaBRW Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable on Tue, Jul 19, 2005 at 03:16:52AM -0400, Chris Maeda (chrismaeda@comcast.n= et) wrote: > Citrix vs WTS -- Citrix appears to support Linux clients while I'm willing > to bet that WTS does not. How much is that wager? $ apt-caceh show rdesktop Package: rdesktop Priority: optional Section: x11 Installed-Size: 380 Maintainer: Tomas Fasth Architecture: i386 Version: 1.4.0-2 Depends: libc6 (>=3D 2.3.2.ds1-4), libssl0.9.7, libx11-6 | xlibs (>> 4.= 1.0) Filename: pool/main/r/rdesktop/rdesktop_1.4.0-2_i386.deb Size: 94912 MD5sum: e5c0badff457920e941b80b0c1c05947 Description: RDP client for Windows NT/2000 Terminal Server rdesktop is an open source client for Windows NT/2000 Terminal Server, capable of natively speaking its Remote Desktop Protocol (RDP) in order to present the user's NT/2000 desktop. Unlike Citrix ICA, no server extensions are required. > If the app is mission critical (and therefore not easily substituted), > then Citrix is really the only viable approach. You would be nuts to > bet the farm on Wine in its current state, and running the app in > VMWare requires you to buy a Windows license and a VMWare license, > which ends up being more expensive. As I stated in my prior post: legacy MS Windows licensing is going to bite you no matter what. I'm not sure what the situation is with WTS / Citrix, but it's a mess. The situation here is less expense than a mix of capability, centralized management, and control. One of the attractions of a virtualized solution is the ability to lock down a system to just that state which provides capabilities, with all stateful changes rolled back to a known good state. Disk images and whatever VMWare's current "we don't write the session data until you tell us to, and only if" technology is called, etc. Absent virtualization, you'd need an add-on product such as Deep Freeze to provide comperable control. With The New York Times writing about people junking perfectly good hardware due to spyware, viruses, and other malware afflictions, you need this order of control to even contemplate 'Doze. The expense of the software itself is, all considered, relatively small. Peace. =20 --=20 Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? The revolution will not be televised. You can apt-get it from the usual mirrors, however. http://www.debian.o= rg/ --iEWWOZ/QYGWEaBRW Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC3KxAefG8443k044RAu78AKCKuQFyBNzgvvWBZTkAl3GDNpy7dACfb8UK bjkaFnBzRXOAUTCp5RAD3Z0= =Hwbi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --iEWWOZ/QYGWEaBRW-- From fsb-return-10114-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Tue Jul 19 08:37:06 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 39998 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2005 08:37:06 -0000 Received: from ns.crynwr.com (HELO ns1.crynwr.com) (192.203.178.2) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 19 Jul 2005 08:37:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 16531 invoked by alias); 19 Jul 2005 08:34:27 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 16431 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2005 08:33:16 -0000 Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 01:33:04 -0700 From: "Karsten M. Self" To: fsb@crynwr.com Subject: Re: support for a small US college going GNU? Message-ID: <20050719083304.GA2589@localhost> Mail-Followup-To: fsb@crynwr.com References: <002b01c58bff$eb7127b0$010aa8c0@cylon> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ZGiS0Q5IWpPtfppv" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <002b01c58bff$eb7127b0$010aa8c0@cylon> X-Debian-GNU-Linux: Rocks X-no-disclaimers: All email disclaimers are specifically and explicitly rejected: http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/stupid-disclaimers/ X-Kuro5hin-cabal: There is no K5 cabal X-GPG-Fingerprint: 5CAA 226D 2CCC 0A2A A502 D09E 79F1 BCE3 8DE4 D38E X-uptime: 00:31:31 up 1 day, 20:26, 8 users, load average: 2.39, 1.11, 1.06 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Sender: "Karsten M. Self" X-ELNK-Trace: fb8b5507a77b41ab6f36dc87813833b2494a2b12faa40c436a2b1a185e0803a268cd1e3d0b6c4e78350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.81.218.16 X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N --ZGiS0Q5IWpPtfppv Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable on Mon, Jul 18, 2005 at 09:19:27PM -0400, David Kaufman (david@gigawatt.com= ) wrote: > Hi Joe, >=20 > Joe Corneli wrote: > >I've been corresponding a little with the new CIO of my "alma mater" > >(New College of Florida, a small public "liberal arts" school in > >Sarasota) about switching the college over to GNU/Linux [...] the CIO, > >Erich Matola, points out that switching architectures would require > >funding. Presumably this is true; >=20 > Of course. Not switching requires funding, too. =20 Good point. The naive calulus is: WINDOWS_COST =3D=3D 0 LINUX_COST > 0 =2E..therefore GNU/Linux loses. > Funds are used to periodically upgrade staff PC's in different > departments at different times, adding memory, more storage, or > completely new machines, as the older ones become too old to be > useful. Funds are expended to upgrade those same PC's to more recent > versions of Windows, as this user needs some new feature or that one > needs some new program that is not avilable on the older version of > Windows. I suspect you're both distorting software costs and leaving out a major component of Windows costs. Most academic environments secure dramtic discounts on software. Client OS + office suite licensing for Microsoft products is on the order of $30 - $50 for OS and apps, each (net ~$60 - $100). Steeper discounts may be available, this is just what I've seen published in the past year or so. On enough desktops, the per-unit differential _does_ add up, but not as fast as a naive (retail, home, or business pricing) estimate would suggest. However there are additional costs for Windows, most notably: - Software: each of the following run ~$10 - $50 per client, even with academic discount - Anti-virus software. - Anti-spyware software. - System freeze software (e.g.: DeepFreeze). - System imaging software. - Admin time to apply software to systems, build images, recover systems, etc. - Capability lost through lack of flexibility in systems, whether this is the ability to differentiate systems, or the inability to offer capabilities through lack of suitably secure software or time to address issues. - Downtime and redundancy required to address shortcomings of the existing legacy MS Windows infrastructure. =20 =20 > Ask the CIO to ask the CFO for a report of past expenses, per year, > for PC hardware upgrades and new copies of whichever Windows Upgrade > was new that year. Then explain to them that Linux upgrades are free > and, since Linux tolerates older hardware far longer than Windows > does, all those O/S upgrades won't necessitate corresponding > *hardware* upgrades to battle the "my PC got slow" reports that come > in after the XP upgrades go out. Developers, developers, developers! - Steve Ballmer, 2001 Maintenance costs, maintenance costs, maintenance costs! - Karsten Self, 2005 Software costs are a small component of total system costs. GNU/Linux benefits: - Increased reliability. - Increased security. - Improved performance. - Increased system capabilities. - Increased system flexibility. - Reduced vendor lock-in. - Increased ability to trial new software. - Decreased hardware requirements. - Increased hardware lifetime. - And yes, lower software costs. But most of all: - CHOICE! GNU/Linux and FSF Free Software free you from being tied to a single vendor of: - Operating systems. - Applications. - Services. - Hardware. Don't underestimate the value of removing constraints in optimizing organizational performance. =20 > If you find that the Windows license expenses are (curiously) far too > small to account for all the windows machines in use (because they > don't "track those closely enough") or because they "just use the > O/S's that come with the new PC's" and then "share" a few upgrade CD's > among them all later on as needed, offer to walk around with him and > take a quick count of the number of Windows machines *running* XP or > Server 2003 as compared to the number of machines that were purchased > *with* those latest versions of Windows, plus the number of retail > Windows upgrades they actually bought, and you can quickly see out how > much it would cost for them to "get into compliance" with their > current use of Windows licenses, were they to need to do so in a > hurry, as per the audit agreements they've agreed to, by merely > tearing open Windows shrinkwrap. I suspect what you'll find instead are sitewide licensing agreements which minimize much of this overhead, and a willingness to accomodate any discrepencies, so long as the resolution involves rooting out any of that cancerous, viral, weed-like software stuff.... =20 > Be sure to point out that most, if not all, corporate IT departments and= =20 > small businesses also find that they have easily, even unintentionally=20 > fallen out of compliance because it is nearly impossible to track, and=20 > MS licenses seldom enforced. But ask them, why run an O/S that has such= =20 > a high legal risk attached to it? =20 To you and me, the legal risk associated with GNU/Linux (Microsoft / Sun attack dog Caldera/SCO notwithstanding) is low. And the likelihood of a vigorous defense being prosecuted by IBM / HP / Intel / AMD is high. But businesses (and boards of regents) are risk averse and slow to grok, so you may want to hone your arguments here. Noting that Microsoft customers have been directly threatened with lawsuits due to patent and/or copyright infringement within Microsoft products might prove useful. Peace. --=20 Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? There are no "free lunches", but sometimes it costs more to collect mon= ey than to give away food. --ZGiS0Q5IWpPtfppv Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC3LrAefG8443k044RAn8AAJ9lzJA5JdhKXXpgwjo0JaYlfMAzJQCfehEQ vK7wi4hOidZmg/unv4InbP0= =L04d -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ZGiS0Q5IWpPtfppv-- From fsb-return-10115-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Tue Jul 19 10:36:25 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 10371 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2005 10:36:24 -0000 Received: from ns.crynwr.com (HELO ns1.crynwr.com) (192.203.178.2) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 19 Jul 2005 10:36:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 5526 invoked by alias); 19 Jul 2005 10:35:51 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 5518 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2005 10:35:49 -0000 Message-ID: <42DCD755.2080000@roblimo.com> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 06:35:01 -0400 From: robin Reply-To: robin@roblimo.com Organization: OSTG User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050404) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: fsb@crynwr.com Subject: Re: support for a small US college going GNU? References: <002b01c58bff$eb7127b0$010aa8c0@cylon> <20050719083304.GA2589@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20050719083304.GA2589@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus-Scanner: Scanned and found to be clean by AQHost - http://www.AQHost.com X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - queenie.aqhostdns.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - crynwr.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - roblimo.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N >On enough desktops, the per-unit differential _does_ add up, but not as >fast as a naive (retail, home, or business pricing) estimate would >suggest. > Erich -- the New College IT guy -- emailed me and I sent him my phone number. I assume he'll call at some point. I have several friends/sailing buddies who teach at New College, plus my recently-departed editorial intern/assistant was a student there. My intent is not to become a FOSS salesperson (yes, I know all the usual pitches and can point to all well-known research material) as much as to put him in touch with local business, academic, and non-profit (professional) Linux users, some of whom are IT managers for high-profile local businesses. I'll also introduce him to the famously Linux-using IT dept in Largo, FL, one county north of here. Largo claims the lowest IT expense of any FL local government as a percentage of total city revenue and per city employee. There are barriers, though. One is natural human conservatism. I'm trying to switch from KDE to Gnome and not finding it all that easy. I'm also trying to learn how to use MS Office for some studies about what kinds of formatting will and will not survive transitions to and from OOo, and figuring out the new (to me) office software is even harder than the desktop change. I think about some of the non-computer-lover New College profs I know, and, well.... I dunno. We'll see how it all goes. I think Eric Jahn, who singlehandedly maintains the entire (Linux-based) IT infrastructure for the local United Way and most of its affiliated charities, will be more credible than any of us. Ditto Logan Tygart, chief admin for a large and profitable local Web hosting service, and Austin Theen, who maintains a number of local small company IT operations as a consultant -- and whose family has been around here forever and therefore has many business/board/political connections. Austin has been moving his clients steadily to Linux, very low key, and can show Erich how their maintenance/admin bills go down after they switch. On the other hand, Florida elected officials tend to have big "For Sale" signs around their necks and Microsoft has not been shy about buying. On the gripping hand, Florida is in a chronic budget crunch and politicians here are always looking for ways to do things cheaper. Even Congresswoman Kathy Harris (R-unearned wealth), whose nominal geographic district includes New College, and her staff have started asking about potential savings with Linux and FOSS. Always interesting.... and there's always a story to be written no matter how things play out... - Robin From fsb-return-10116-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Tue Jul 19 17:46:29 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 21572 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2005 17:46:29 -0000 Received: from ns.crynwr.com (HELO ns1.crynwr.com) (192.203.178.2) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 19 Jul 2005 17:46:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 17640 invoked by alias); 19 Jul 2005 17:46:03 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 17621 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2005 17:45:59 -0000 Message-ID: <42DD3DA6.9090904@codeweavers.com> Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:51:34 -0500 From: Jeremy White User-Agent: Debian Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050402) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: cmaeda@alum.mit.edu CC: "'Karsten M. Self'" , fsb@crynwr.com References: <00ad01c58c31$d6280400$0763050a@madcat> In-Reply-To: <00ad01c58c31$d6280400$0763050a@madcat> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 216.251.189.140 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jwhite@codeweavers.com Subject: Re: support for a small US college going GNU? X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on mail X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.7 required=3.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.0.2 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2 (built Thu, 03 Mar 2005 10:44:12 +0100) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on mail.codeweavers.com) X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N > If the app is mission critical (and therefore not easily substituted), then > Citrix is really the only viable approach. You would be nuts to bet the > farm on Wine in its current state, and running the app in VMWare requires > you to buy a Windows license and a VMWare license, which ends up being more > expensive. With all due respect, we have a very large number of academic customers using Wine, often in mission critical roles (the classroom is dead without the software). In fact, Academic customers represent our single largest block of customers. I will be the first to admit that Wine is not yet complete and has some serious issues. However, I think that you underestimate the value of Wine when run in a supported framework, such as what we provide via CrossOver. My whole business (a Free Software Business, I like to think) is built on enabling people to use Wine despite its shortcomings, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't dismiss us completely . With that said, I think that a balanced and pragmatic analysis such as Karsten has recommended remains the best choice. And there are often situations where Wine is not appropriate; I often recommend VMWare or Citrix myself. However, I retain my rather biased opinion that, when it works, Wine is the best way to solve this problem. And Wine gets better every day... Cheers, Jeremy From fsb-return-10117-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Tue Jul 19 21:13:11 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 86684 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2005 21:13:10 -0000 Received: from ns.crynwr.com (HELO ns1.crynwr.com) (192.203.178.2) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 19 Jul 2005 21:13:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 17167 invoked by alias); 19 Jul 2005 21:12:26 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 17158 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2005 21:12:24 -0000 Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 14:12:14 -0700 From: "Karsten M. Self" To: fsb@crynwr.com Subject: Re: support for a small US college going GNU? Message-ID: <20050719211214.GC2068@localhost> Mail-Followup-To: fsb@crynwr.com References: <002b01c58bff$eb7127b0$010aa8c0@cylon> <20050719083304.GA2589@localhost> <42DCD755.2080000@roblimo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="HG+GLK89HZ1zG0kk" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42DCD755.2080000@roblimo.com> X-Debian-GNU-Linux: Rocks X-no-disclaimers: All email disclaimers are specifically and explicitly rejected: http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/stupid-disclaimers/ X-Kuro5hin-cabal: There is no K5 cabal X-GPG-Fingerprint: 5CAA 226D 2CCC 0A2A A502 D09E 79F1 BCE3 8DE4 D38E X-uptime: 22:11:47 up 18:07, 6 users, load average: 0.10, 0.20, 0.39 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Sender: "Karsten M. Self" X-ELNK-Trace: fb8b5507a77b41ab6f36dc87813833b2494a2b12faa40c438ca8b8c53677d91645b9aaf7a959bd62350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.81.223.17 X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N --HG+GLK89HZ1zG0kk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable on Tue, Jul 19, 2005 at 06:35:01AM -0400, robin (robin@roblimo.com) wrote: >=20 > Erich -- the New College IT guy -- emailed me and I sent him my phone=20 > number. I assume he'll call at some point. I have several=20 > friends/sailing buddies who teach at New College, plus my=20 > recently-departed editorial intern/assistant was a student there. =2E..and a few NewsForge stories to boot, no doubt ;-) =20 > My intent is not to become a FOSS salesperson (yes, I know all the usual= =20 > pitches and can point to all well-known research material) as much as to= =20 > put him in touch with local business, academic, and non-profit=20 > (professional) Linux users, some of whom are IT managers for=20 > high-profile local businesses. I'll also introduce him to the famously=20 > Linux-using IT dept in Largo, FL, one county north of here. Largo claims= =20 > the lowest IT expense of any FL local government as a percentage of=20 > total city revenue and per city employee. Sweet. Speaking of NewsForge stories.... An update might be due... =20 > There are barriers, though. One is natural human conservatism.=20 IMO this is the single largest. The most significant factors being the humans in question, and the level of conservatism. > I'm trying to switch from KDE to Gnome and not finding it all that > easy. I'm also trying to learn how to use MS Office for some studies > about what kinds of formatting will and will not survive transitions > to and from OOo, and figuring out the new (to me) office software is > even harder than the desktop change. I think about some of the > non-computer-lover New College profs I know, and, well.... I dunno. =2E..all of which are reasons why I'd strongly recommend staging transitions with software first and OS later. Note that with an "unmanaged" X server (IIUC the Xming server, based on Cygwin's X, can do this), you can also start introducing GNU/Linux apps, served from a GNU/Linux server, on the legacy MS Windows desktop, launched via icons or menus, before making the transition. My experience is that X apps on MS Windows involves less cognitive dissonance than MS Windows apps under WINE. In particular, the graphics quality is better. Creative drive mapping and Samba usage can also make common storage points (particularly network file shares) largely transparently available to both local and remote apps. Is anyone aware of a tool which allows single Windows apps to be launched remotely but be viewed directly on the local desktop, without some sort of "framing" interference (e.g.: VNC, rdesktop, etc.)? =20 > We'll see how it all goes. I think Eric Jahn, who singlehandedly=20 > maintains the entire (Linux-based) IT infrastructure for the local=20 > United Way and most of its affiliated charities, will be more credible=20 > than any of us.=20 Sweet. That's street cred. <...> =20 > On the other hand, Florida elected officials tend to have big "For > Sale" signs around their necks and Microsoft has not been shy about > buying. On the gripping hand, Florida is in a chronic budget crunch > and politicians here are always looking for ways to do things cheaper. > Even Congresswoman Kathy Harris (R-unearned wealth), whose nominal > geographic district includes New College, and her staff have started > asking about potential savings with Linux and FOSS. One of the points I've been making, low-key, locally, is that it's quite possible that local government's near the _top_ of its budget cycle, not the bottom. "This is as good as it gets". Plan accordingly. =20 > Always interesting.... and there's always a story to be written no=20 > matter how things play out... Aha! Ulterior motives! Thought so ;-) Peace. --=20 Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? A guide to GNU/Linux books: http://kmself.home.netcom.com/Linux/FAQs/linux-books.html --HG+GLK89HZ1zG0kk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC3WyuefG8443k044RAo3nAJ9p0hxcZCLm9W30mUR0KF2uZ+00HQCeKpQ7 TXPQtr+b95GhlkMJWHXiG0I= =BtAf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --HG+GLK89HZ1zG0kk-- From fsb-return-10118-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Wed Jul 20 16:32:32 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 93021 invoked from network); 20 Jul 2005 16:32:32 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 20 Jul 2005 16:32:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 4266 invoked by alias); 20 Jul 2005 16:25:38 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 4252 invoked from network); 20 Jul 2005 16:25:36 -0000 X-SEF-Processed: 5_0_0_713__2005_07_20_10_24_58 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: support for a small US college going GNU? Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 10:24:58 -0600 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: support for a small US college going GNU? Thread-Index: AcWMIWYX3cyuR7GrShytNbfhprZ6LABJWa3A From: "Anderson, Kelly" To: "Karsten M. Self" , X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Citrix is definitely expensive, but many IT shops have found it to be=0D=0A= highly cost effective. That's why they were one of the few companies=0D=0At= hat did fairly well during the downturn in 2001-2003 because companies=0D=0A= bought their stuff to save money. I used to work for Citrix, so I met=0D=0A= some customers with some fairly compelling stories, despite the fact=0D=0At= hat Citrix generally pleases the IS/IT staff to no end, and generally=0D=0A= makes things somewhat less flexible for the end users. I'm not a huge=0D=0A= fan of Metaframe, but they definitely fill a niche that's extremely=0D=0Ahe= lpful at times.=0D=0A=0D=0ACheck out www.citrix.com for further information= =2E=20=0D=0A=0D=0A-Kelly=0D=0A=0D=0A-----Original Message-----=0D=0AFrom: K= arsten M. Self [mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com]=20=0D=0ASent: Monday, July 18,= 2005 11:18 PM=0D=0ATo: fsb@crynwr.com=0D=0ASubject: Re: support for a smal= l US college going GNU=3F=0D=0A=0D=0A> > Citrix Metaframe is similar to Mic= rosoft Terminal Services, but it's=0D=0A=0D=0A> > more highly configurable = and manageable.=0D=0A=20=0D=0AAny cost figures=3F As that's a large part o= f the equation here.=0D=0A=0D=0AThe neat thing about WTS is that it's fast = and simple, and for the user=0D=0Awho only needs access to a couple of lega= cy apps, it works pretty well.=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0AE-M= ail messages may contain viruses, worms, or other malicious code. By readin= g the message and opening any attachments, the recipient accepts full respo= nsibility for taking protective action against such code. Sender is not lia= ble for any loss or damage arising from this message.=0D=0A=0D=0AThe inform= ation in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is i= ntended solely for the addressee(s). Access to this e-mail by anyone else i= s unauthorized.=0D=0A From fsb-return-10119-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Wed Jul 20 23:01:15 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 70558 invoked from network); 20 Jul 2005 23:01:15 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 20 Jul 2005 23:01:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 21262 invoked by alias); 20 Jul 2005 23:00:13 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 21192 invoked from network); 20 Jul 2005 23:00:01 -0000 Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2005 15:59:49 -0700 From: "Karsten M. Self" To: fsb@crynwr.com Subject: OT: Carriage return inserts in MS Exchange email -- fix? (was: Re: support for a small US college going GNU?) Message-ID: <20050720225949.GD16245@localhost> Mail-Followup-To: fsb@crynwr.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="PuGuTyElPB9bOcsM" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Debian-GNU-Linux: Rocks X-no-disclaimers: All email disclaimers are specifically and explicitly rejected: http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/stupid-disclaimers/ X-Kuro5hin-cabal: There is no K5 cabal X-GPG-Fingerprint: 5CAA 226D 2CCC 0A2A A502 D09E 79F1 BCE3 8DE4 D38E X-uptime: 04:22:12 up 3 days, 17 min, 8 users, load average: 4.21, 4.71, 4.94 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Sender: "Karsten M. Self" X-ELNK-Trace: fb8b5507a77b41ab6f36dc87813833b2494a2b12faa40c432c4e3a98a909bc204f3e84ffe5ca9630350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.81.221.132 X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N --PuGuTyElPB9bOcsM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As some of you may see in the text below, Kelly's mail messages are appearing here with spurious carriage return (hex 0x0D) added to line feeds. He's running MS Outlook, sent through MS Exchange, format is quoted-printable. Other mail with similar characteristics doesn't have this issue, including several on this list. Does anyone know what's happening and/or how this can be fixed? It's somewhat annoying. I've discussed the matter with Kelly and he's not aware of any MS Outlook settings which are doing this, I suspect this is an Exchange setting somewhere. Googling doesn't provide any clear fix. A sample of the raw encoded text follows: =3D0A-Kelly=3D20=3D0D=3D0A=3D0D=3D0A-----Original Message-----=3D0D=3D0AFro= m: Karsten M. Se=3D =2E..where "=3D0D" is the CR, and "=3D0A" is linefeed. Peace. on Wed, Jul 20, 2005 at 10:24:58AM -0600, Anderson, Kelly (KAnderson@dentri= x.com) wrote: > Citrix is definitely expensive, but many IT shops have found it to be=0D > highly cost effective. That's why they were one of the few companies=0D > that did fairly well during the downturn in 2001-2003 because companies=0D > bought their stuff to save money. I used to work for Citrix, so I met=0D > some customers with some fairly compelling stories, despite the fact=0D > that Citrix generally pleases the IS/IT staff to no end, and generally=0D > makes things somewhat less flexible for the end users. I'm not a huge=0D > fan of Metaframe, but they definitely fill a niche that's extremely=0D > helpful at times.=0D > =0D > Check out www.citrix.com for further information. =0D > =0D > -Kelly=0D > =0D > -----Original Message-----=0D > From: Karsten M. Self [mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com] =0D > Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 11:18 PM=0D > To: fsb@crynwr.com=0D > Subject: Re: support for a small US college going GNU?=0D > =0D > > > Citrix Metaframe is similar to Microsoft Terminal Services, but it's= =0D > =0D > > > more highly configurable and manageable.=0D > =0D > Any cost figures? As that's a large part of the equation here.=0D > =0D > The neat thing about WTS is that it's fast and simple, and for the user=0D > who only needs access to a couple of legacy apps, it works pretty well.=0D > =0D > =0D > =0D > =0D > =0D > =0D > E-Mail messages may contain viruses, worms, or other malicious code. By r= eading the message and opening any attachments, the recipient accepts full = responsibility for taking protective action against such code. Sender is no= t liable for any loss or damage arising from this message.=0D > =0D > The information in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privile= ged. It is intended solely for the addressee(s). Access to this e-mail by a= nyone else is unauthorized.=0D >=20 >=20 --=20 Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Microsoft KB: Cookies Lost After Upgrading to Windows XP. [Ed: WONTFIX: Feature] - http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=3D282850 --PuGuTyElPB9bOcsM Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC3tdlefG8443k044RArdgAJ9LgPBbgEWBk8XYO3U+FPi4YXJiMwCaAzWP FZjy5ZfLyWgGUM39Cpnp30E= =1FVR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --PuGuTyElPB9bOcsM-- From fsb-return-10120-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Thu Jul 21 19:12:43 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 82054 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2005 19:12:42 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 21 Jul 2005 19:12:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 28189 invoked by alias); 21 Jul 2005 18:20:51 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 28130 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2005 18:20:32 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 11:23:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Behlendorf X-X-Sender: brian@paz.hyperreal.org To: fsb@crynwr.com Subject: industry-specific desktops? Message-ID: <20050721112047.X46418@paz.hyperreal.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Rating: localhost.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Anyone know of any company offering Linux desktops customized for particular industries/commercial tasks? A reporter called asking about such a thing, and I had through I'd heard of this in the medical office space, but it might have been some other industry. Point-of-sale systems kind of count, I guess... Brian From fsb-return-10121-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Thu Jul 21 20:11:08 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 2300 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2005 20:11:08 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 21 Jul 2005 20:11:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 14301 invoked by alias); 21 Jul 2005 19:41:18 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 14278 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2005 19:41:13 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:41:03 -0700 From: "Karsten M. Self" To: fsb@crynwr.com Subject: Re: industry-specific desktops? Message-ID: <20050721194103.GA18912@localhost> Mail-Followup-To: fsb@crynwr.com References: <20050721112047.X46418@paz.hyperreal.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="y0ulUmNC+osPPQO6" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050721112047.X46418@paz.hyperreal.org> X-Debian-GNU-Linux: Rocks X-no-disclaimers: All email disclaimers are specifically and explicitly rejected: http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/stupid-disclaimers/ X-Kuro5hin-cabal: There is no K5 cabal X-GPG-Fingerprint: 5CAA 226D 2CCC 0A2A A502 D09E 79F1 BCE3 8DE4 D38E X-uptime: 12:16:56 up 4 days, 8:12, 10 users, load average: 0.62, 1.65, 3.08 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Sender: "Karsten M. Self" X-ELNK-Trace: fb8b5507a77b41ab6f36dc87813833b2494a2b12faa40c43c3b57f080133c92ec29427829677be78350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.81.217.4 X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N --y0ulUmNC+osPPQO6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable on Thu, Jul 21, 2005 at 11:23:19AM -0700, Brian Behlendorf (brian@collab.ne= t) wrote: >=20 > Anyone know of any company offering Linux desktops customized for=20 > particular industries/commercial tasks? A reporter called asking about= =20 > such a thing, and I had through I'd heard of this in the medical office= =20 > space, but it might have been some other industry. Point-of-sale systems= =20 > kind of count, I guess... Lots of Knoppix varieties, including medicine, bioinformatics, security, and the like. Not "desktop" in the traditional sense, though they can certainly be installed to hard drive rather than run live. LWN has among the better lists, including special purpose / mini distributions: http://lwn.net/Distributions/#special =2E..including digital content creation, several rescue distros (technical / forensics), lots of multimedia playback & edit systems, VOIP/PBX, bioinformatics, visually impaired, clustering (likely not a desktop...), medicine (Debian-Med), kiosk systems, firewalls (also not desktop...), meta-mini-distros (tools to roll your own, e.g.: GENDIST), MythTV / video recorders, security-oriented distros, college resnet tester, thin-client systems, Linksys wrt54g mods, Xen (hypervisor) distros. Debian's also highly modular and supports custom-targetted systems, specifically through "Custom Debian Distributions": http://wiki.debian.net/index.cgi?CustomDebian Existing customizations include: - Debian-BR-CDD: a CDD by the brazilian project Debian-BR - Debian Desktop: - DebianGIS: a CDD for Geographical Information and Earth Observation Systems (includes OpenGIS and GPSTk). - Debian Junior: For children - Debian Lex: - Debian Med: Medical - Debian Nonprofit: - DebianNeo: Debian Stable for newbies - DeMuDi: Audio (part of AGNULA) - LliureX: Distribution for the Valencian (Spain) Public Educational System ( http://www.cult.gva.es/ ). - Skolelinux (built by the DebianEdu project): a CDD aimed at schools. - UserLinux: DebianEnterprise and DebianEnterpriseServer are UserLinux derivatives; enterprise desktop, SOHO; fostering service and support: certification, installation, configuration and maintence providers. - EducationElectronics . - Ichthux: a CDD aimed at christians Might also want to ping Ian Murdoch since this (well, aside from RH legacy support) is his baliwick. I've forwarded your query. Peace. --=20 Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Napa Small Animal Hospital: good folks, healthy pets. http://kmself.home.netcom.com/Rants/nsah.html --y0ulUmNC+osPPQO6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC3/pPefG8443k044RAizLAJ9KHnNxQNCmnNWBXYHyeyCVK6QpgACfbAHY QBQ612JHiIgzg+SDb5pjuEw= =tVhO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --y0ulUmNC+osPPQO6-- From fsb-return-10122-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Thu Jul 21 20:27:33 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 8486 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2005 20:27:33 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 21 Jul 2005 20:27:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 16422 invoked by alias); 21 Jul 2005 19:50:36 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 16409 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2005 19:50:35 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:48:46 -0700 From: Don Marti To: fsb@crynwr.com Subject: Re: industry-specific desktops? Message-ID: <20050721194846.GA16572@zgp.org> References: <20050721112047.X46418@paz.hyperreal.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050721112047.X46418@paz.hyperreal.org> X-Message-Flag: No word processor attachments. Plain text only. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N begin Brian Behlendorf quotation of Thu, Jul 21, 2005 at 11:23:19AM -0700: > Anyone know of any company offering Linux desktops customized for > particular industries/commercial tasks? A reporter called asking about > such a thing, and I had through I'd heard of this in the medical office > space, but it might have been some other industry. Point-of-sale systems > kind of count, I guess... HP sells spiffy Linux workstations targeted at Digital Content Creation (DCC), oil and gas, and EDA: http://www.hp.com/workstations/pws/linux/faq.html >From the actual product page you have to drill down to the configurator to see the Linux options, though. (%*$#$# co-op marketing) -- Don Marti http://zgp.org/~dmarti/ dmarti@zgp.org From fsb-return-10123-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Thu Jul 21 21:04:09 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 26867 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2005 21:04:08 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 21 Jul 2005 21:04:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 27684 invoked by alias); 21 Jul 2005 20:43:32 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 27676 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2005 20:43:30 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:46:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Behlendorf X-X-Sender: brian@paz.hyperreal.org To: fsb@crynwr.com Subject: Re: industry-specific desktops? In-Reply-To: <20050721194846.GA16572@zgp.org> Message-ID: <20050721133701.W46418@paz.hyperreal.org> References: <20050721112047.X46418@paz.hyperreal.org> <20050721194846.GA16572@zgp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Rating: localhost.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N On Thu, 21 Jul 2005, Karsten M. Self wrote: > on Thu, Jul 21, 2005 at 11:23:19AM -0700, Brian Behlendorf (brian@collab.net) wrote: >> >> Anyone know of any company offering Linux desktops customized for >> particular industries/commercial tasks? A reporter called asking about >> such a thing, and I had through I'd heard of this in the medical office >> space, but it might have been some other industry. Point-of-sale systems >> kind of count, I guess... > > Lots of Knoppix varieties, including medicine, bioinformatics, security, > and the like. Not "desktop" in the traditional sense, though they can > certainly be installed to hard drive rather than run live. Very nice - though I'm specifically interested in *companies* behind those distributions, willing to come in and provide support for the desktop software and machines themselves, possibly in combination with other industry-specific software on a back-end server somewhere and other support services. Who show up at those industry-specific conferences or trade rags to pitch their wares, etc. DIY solutions work for those willing to be responsible for correcting problems... most doctors offices, for example, barely want to pay for an IT person, let alone a developer. On Thu, 21 Jul 2005, Don Marti wrote: > HP sells spiffy Linux workstations targeted at Digital > Content Creation (DCC), oil and gas, and EDA: > > http://www.hp.com/workstations/pws/linux/faq.html Great! Closer. I'll sic the reporter on that link. Brian From fsb-return-10124-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Thu Jul 21 22:33:46 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 66518 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2005 22:33:46 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 21 Jul 2005 22:33:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 12453 invoked by alias); 21 Jul 2005 22:33:20 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 12438 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2005 22:33:17 -0000 From: "Larry M. Augustin" To: "'Brian Behlendorf'" , Subject: RE: industry-specific desktops? Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:32:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thread-Index: AcWOKFqcD8QVUQnhTW6rbIzlNi5e6wAGr0Sw In-Reply-To: <20050721112047.X46418@paz.hyperreal.org> X-LMA: smtp.sbc.mail.yahoo4.akadns.net 68.142.198.11 X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Brian, You might have heard it from me. We're planning to offer this for our OpenVista Electronic Health Record product at Medsphere. We're working on a Linux version of the client, but haven't yet announced when it will be available. Once the Linux client is ready, we expect people to deploy Linux desktop systems running only or primarily our client. Larry -- Larry Augustin, CEO Medsphere Systems Corporation > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian Behlendorf [mailto:brian@collab.net] > Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 11:23 AM > To: fsb@crynwr.com > Subject: industry-specific desktops? > > > Anyone know of any company offering Linux desktops customized for > particular industries/commercial tasks? A reporter called asking about > such a thing, and I had through I'd heard of this in the medical office > space, but it might have been some other industry. Point-of-sale systems > kind of count, I guess... > > Brian From fsb-return-10125-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Thu Jul 21 22:35:54 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 66983 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2005 22:35:54 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 21 Jul 2005 22:35:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 12666 invoked by alias); 21 Jul 2005 22:34:00 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 12646 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2005 22:33:57 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 15:33:46 -0700 From: "Karsten M. Self" To: fsb@crynwr.com Subject: Re: industry-specific desktops? Message-ID: <20050721223346.GA6634@localhost> Mail-Followup-To: fsb@crynwr.com References: <20050721112047.X46418@paz.hyperreal.org> <20050721194846.GA16572@zgp.org> <20050721133701.W46418@paz.hyperreal.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="AqsLC8rIMeq19msA" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050721133701.W46418@paz.hyperreal.org> X-Debian-GNU-Linux: Rocks X-no-disclaimers: All email disclaimers are specifically and explicitly rejected: http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/stupid-disclaimers/ X-Kuro5hin-cabal: There is no K5 cabal X-GPG-Fingerprint: 5CAA 226D 2CCC 0A2A A502 D09E 79F1 BCE3 8DE4 D38E X-uptime: 15:03:44 up 47 min, 3 users, load average: 3.39, 1.41, 0.57 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Sender: "Karsten M. Self" X-ELNK-Trace: fb8b5507a77b41ab6f36dc87813833b2494a2b12faa40c438375303c469673f7f33c438e9010da87350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.81.217.4 X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N --AqsLC8rIMeq19msA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable on Thu, Jul 21, 2005 at 01:46:20PM -0700, Brian Behlendorf (brian@collab.ne= t) wrote: > On Thu, 21 Jul 2005, Karsten M. Self wrote: > >on Thu, Jul 21, 2005 at 11:23:19AM -0700, Brian Behlendorf=20 > >(brian@collab.net) wrote: > >> > >>Anyone know of any company offering Linux desktops customized for > >>particular industries/commercial tasks? A reporter called asking about > >>such a thing, and I had through I'd heard of this in the medical office > >>space, but it might have been some other industry. Point-of-sale syste= ms > >>kind of count, I guess... > > > >Lots of Knoppix varieties, including medicine, bioinformatics, security, > >and the like. Not "desktop" in the traditional sense, though they can > >certainly be installed to hard drive rather than run live. >=20 > Very nice - though I'm specifically interested in *companies* behind thos= e=20 > distributions, willing to come in and provide support for the desktop=20 > software and machines themselves, possibly in combination with other=20 > industry-specific software on a back-end server somewhere and other=20 > support services. =20 Right. I guess that business rags tend to obsess over ... businesses. Progeny remains a good starting point, I've pinged Ian. Word on the street is that Debian customization is what he talks, RH support is what he bills. There's an outfit behind LTSP, and some of the others listed may have organizations behind them. Knoppix is related to Knopper's consulting work... Part of the issue is that there's _not_ a heck of a lot of difference between some community projects and "commercial" distros -- what with Mepis and Slackware, for example, largely being single-man efforts. Which speeks to both the scale and ability of putting something like this together: it's not much more than a one-man show. Greatest strength/weakness thing. How's someone like SpikeSource fit into this space? They're a bit ill-defined to me so far. Peace. --=20 Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Yes, but how do you associate preferred programs for those MIME types? - Adam Hooper, demonstrating why GNOME is reinventing Unix. Poorly. --AqsLC8rIMeq19msA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC4CLKefG8443k044RAtgJAJ9gjElVqJRh5p3pVwj0qp6CdGKcAQCfYLuo +saNG/xlLSEisAIUDv2UKPE= =lixa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --AqsLC8rIMeq19msA-- From fsb-return-10126-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Thu Jul 21 23:30:48 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 83019 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2005 23:30:48 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 21 Jul 2005 23:30:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 21072 invoked by alias); 21 Jul 2005 23:30:28 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 21059 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2005 23:30:26 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 16:33:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Behlendorf X-X-Sender: brian@paz.hyperreal.org To: "Karsten M. Self" cc: fsb@crynwr.com Subject: Re: industry-specific desktops? In-Reply-To: <20050721223346.GA6634@localhost> Message-ID: <20050721163144.D46418@paz.hyperreal.org> References: <20050721112047.X46418@paz.hyperreal.org> <20050721194846.GA16572@zgp.org> <20050721133701.W46418@paz.hyperreal.org> <20050721223346.GA6634@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Rating: localhost.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N On Thu, 21 Jul 2005, Karsten M. Self wrote: > Progeny remains a good starting point, I've pinged Ian. Word on the > street is that Debian customization is what he talks, RH support is what > he bills. > > There's an outfit behind LTSP, and some of the others listed may have > organizations behind them. Knoppix is related to Knopper's consulting > work... OK, good points. Thanks. > How's someone like SpikeSource fit into this space? They're a bit > ill-defined to me so far. They haven't yet expressed an interest in industry-specific stacks or managing desktops AFAIK. Brian From fsb-return-10127-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Thu Jul 21 23:37:35 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 84716 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2005 23:37:35 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 21 Jul 2005 23:37:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 22159 invoked by alias); 21 Jul 2005 23:37:06 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 22151 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2005 23:37:05 -0000 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 01:41:30 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: fsb@crynwr.com Subject: Re: OT: Carriage return inserts in MS Exchange email -- fix? Message-ID: <20050721234130.GA21872@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: fsb@crynwr.com References: <20050720225949.GD16245@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20050720225949.GD16245@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N * Karsten M. Self [2005-07-21 01:10]: > As some of you may see in the text below, Kelly's mail messages > are appearing here with spurious carriage return (hex 0x0D) > added to line feeds. I’ve had the same problem for a while. > He's running MS Outlook, sent through MS Exchange, format is > quoted-printable. Other mail with similar characteristics > doesn't have this issue, including several on this list. > > Does anyone know what's happening and/or how this can be fixed? > It's somewhat annoying. Add “;format=flowed” to the Content-Type and watch the CRs disappear from view. At least in mutt. I’m not sure this is the right fix, to be honest; but it’s the only thing which managed to excise those pesky CRs. (See as well as RFC2646.) Took me a while to debug this, let me tell ya. I had taken to filtering Kelly’s messages through a “s/=OD//g”. Another annoyance is that he is one of the few frequent posters on the list who uses a MUA that does not supply threading headers (In-Reply-To, References). Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From fsb-return-10128-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Fri Jul 22 01:22:39 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 15972 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2005 01:22:39 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 22 Jul 2005 01:22:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 8252 invoked by alias); 22 Jul 2005 01:22:09 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 8246 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2005 01:22:07 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 18:21:58 -0700 From: "Karsten M. Self" To: fsb@crynwr.com Subject: Re: OT: Carriage return inserts in MS Exchange email -- fix? Message-ID: <20050722012158.GA13892@localhost> Mail-Followup-To: fsb@crynwr.com References: <20050720225949.GD16245@localhost> <20050721234130.GA21872@klangraum> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050721234130.GA21872@klangraum> X-Debian-GNU-Linux: Rocks X-no-disclaimers: All email disclaimers are specifically and explicitly rejected: http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/stupid-disclaimers/ X-Kuro5hin-cabal: There is no K5 cabal X-GPG-Fingerprint: 5CAA 226D 2CCC 0A2A A502 D09E 79F1 BCE3 8DE4 D38E X-uptime: 18:18:27 up 4:02, 8 users, load average: 1.66, 0.80, 0.79 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Sender: "Karsten M. Self" X-ELNK-Trace: fb8b5507a77b41ab6f36dc87813833b2494a2b12faa40c432dcbcdd080bc5678f94f86dbc0cfd366350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.81.217.4 X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N --LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable on Fri, Jul 22, 2005 at 01:41:30AM +0200, A. Pagaltzis (pagaltzis@gmx.de) w= rote: > * Karsten M. Self [2005-07-21 01:10]: > > As some of you may see in the text below, Kelly's mail messages > > are appearing here with spurious carriage return (hex 0x0D) > > added to line feeds. >=20 > I???ve had the same problem for a while. Yes, and interesting quotes you've got....=20 =20 > > He's running MS Outlook, sent through MS Exchange, format is > > quoted-printable. Other mail with similar characteristics > > doesn't have this issue, including several on this list. > >=20 > > Does anyone know what's happening and/or how this can be fixed? > > It's somewhat annoying. >=20 > Add ???;format=3Dflowed??? to the Content-Type and watch the CRs > disappear from view. At least in mutt. I???m not sure this is the > right fix, to be honest; but it???s the only thing which managed to > excise those pesky CRs. (See > as well as RFC2646.) I'll look at that. > Took me a while to debug this, let me tell ya. I had taken to > filtering Kelly???s messages through a ???s/=3DOD//g???. Been applying that manually. =20 > Another annoyance is that he is one of the few frequent posters > on the list who uses a MUA that does not supply threading headers > (In-Reply-To, References). Yep. I'm rethreading his mails, also manually. Apparently webmail's out of the question, though I suspect gmail might fix much of this brain-deadedness. Peace. --=20 Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Consumers for Christ - "Brazil" --LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC4Eo2efG8443k044RAviMAJ0Rl0jG61doOXxTM0ms+LeoKZvAfQCfQahB /cqZczao9DcfPCvOkkrXUxg= =BXxH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --LZvS9be/3tNcYl/X-- From fsb-return-10129-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Fri Jul 22 01:46:30 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 25248 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2005 01:46:30 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 22 Jul 2005 01:46:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 12147 invoked by alias); 22 Jul 2005 01:46:10 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 12140 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2005 01:46:08 -0000 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 03:50:44 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: fsb@crynwr.com Subject: Re: OT: Carriage return inserts in MS Exchange email -- fix? Message-ID: <20050722015044.GA22962@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: fsb@crynwr.com References: <20050720225949.GD16245@localhost> <20050721234130.GA21872@klangraum> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20050721234130.GA21872@klangraum> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N * A. Pagaltzis [2005-07-22 01:45]: > Add “;format=flowed” to the Content-Type and watch the CRs > disappear from view. At least in mutt. I’m not sure this is the > right fix, to be honest; but it’s the only thing which managed to > excise those pesky CRs. (See > as well as RFC2646.) Here’s a generic procmail recipe: :0 * ^Content-Transfer-Encoding:.*quoted-printable * ^Content-Type:.*text/plain * ! ^Content-Type:.*format=flowed * B ?? \r { CONTENT_TYPE=`formail -x Content-Type` :0 fhw | formail -i "Content-Type:$CONTENT_TYPE; format=flowed" } This checks quoted-printable encoded text/plain messages that don’t use format=flowed for CRs in the message body. (procmail decodes the transfer encoding before applying regexen, hence `\r` instead `=0D`.) I’m still unsure whether this is the correct thing to do, but the only other solution I found is to sed the CRs out of the body, which is way more invasive. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From fsb-return-10130-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Fri Jul 22 02:33:41 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 42050 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2005 02:33:41 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 22 Jul 2005 02:33:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 18558 invoked by alias); 22 Jul 2005 02:33:15 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 18552 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2005 02:33:14 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 19:33:05 -0700 From: "Karsten M. Self" To: fsb@crynwr.com Subject: Re: OT: Carriage return inserts in MS Exchange email -- fix? Message-ID: <20050722023305.GB13892@localhost> Mail-Followup-To: fsb@crynwr.com References: <20050720225949.GD16245@localhost> <20050721234130.GA21872@klangraum> <20050722015044.GA22962@klangraum> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="gatW/ieO32f1wygP" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050722015044.GA22962@klangraum> X-Debian-GNU-Linux: Rocks X-no-disclaimers: All email disclaimers are specifically and explicitly rejected: http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/stupid-disclaimers/ X-Kuro5hin-cabal: There is no K5 cabal X-GPG-Fingerprint: 5CAA 226D 2CCC 0A2A A502 D09E 79F1 BCE3 8DE4 D38E X-uptime: 18:18:27 up 4:02, 8 users, load average: 1.66, 0.80, 0.79 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Sender: "Karsten M. Self" X-ELNK-Trace: fb8b5507a77b41ab6f36dc87813833b2494a2b12faa40c4374ccecf5286cfa63efe75f4ecd1eb05f350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.81.217.4 X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N --gatW/ieO32f1wygP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable on Fri, Jul 22, 2005 at 03:50:44AM +0200, A. Pagaltzis (pagaltzis@gmx.de) w= rote: > * A. Pagaltzis [2005-07-22 01:45]: > > Add ???;format=3Dflowed??? to the Content-Type and watch the CRs > > disappear from view. At least in mutt. I???m not sure this is the > > right fix, to be honest; but it???s the only thing which managed to > > excise those pesky CRs. (See > > as well as RFC2646.) >=20 > Here???s a generic procmail recipe: >=20 > :0 > * ^Content-Transfer-Encoding:.*quoted-printable > * ^Content-Type:.*text/plain > * ! ^Content-Type:.*format=3Dflowed > * B ?? \r > { > CONTENT_TYPE=3D`formail -x Content-Type` >=20 > :0 fhw > | formail -i "Content-Type:$CONTENT_TYPE; format=3Dflowed" > } >=20 > This checks quoted-printable encoded text/plain messages that > don't use format=3Dflowed for CRs in the message body. (procmail > decodes the transfer encoding before applying regexen, hence `\r` > instead `=3D0D`.) >=20 > I'm still unsure whether this is the correct thing to do, but the > only other solution I found is to sed the CRs out of the body, > which is way more invasive. Right. And would break a number of things. I've restricted this to dentrix for the moment: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D # ---------------------------------------------------------------------- # Format=3Dflowed # Rerwite rule for some mailers.... # Thu Jul 21 19:28:57 PDT 2005 :0 fhw * 1^0 ^FROM:.*@dentrix.com { :0 fhw | $FORMAIL -R "Content-Type:" "X-Original-Content-Type:" :0 fhw | $FORMAIL -a "Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D\"iso-8859-1\"; form= at=3D\"fl owed\"" } =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D =2E..which seems to do the trick. Peace. --=20 Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? So don't deal with it. Don't use software that uses it. - Jeff Waugh, offering preferred GNOME usability workaround. http://zgp.org/pipermail/linux-elitists/2004-January/008588.html --gatW/ieO32f1wygP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC4FrhefG8443k044RAnW7AKCC8a+O0gZFPAiAYVmwS1XXOd1YZgCgh9um JYdpyBhy8XSS7yX3N1jakWg= =zsDW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --gatW/ieO32f1wygP-- From fsb-return-10131-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Fri Jul 22 05:06:49 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 90596 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2005 05:06:49 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 22 Jul 2005 05:06:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 4753 invoked by alias); 22 Jul 2005 05:06:21 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 4745 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2005 05:06:20 -0000 X-SEF-Processed: 5_0_0_713__2005_07_21_23_05_45 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Hypothetical Business Plan Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 23:05:48 -0600 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Hypothetical Business Plan Thread-Index: AcWOZdOPs8XpIfRRSB+mY9urhV+TaQAEuiug From: "Anderson, Kelly" To: X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N =0D=0ASuppose that I want to host Wikis. I write open source software (or=0D= =0Aperhaps semi-open source software) to create the Wiki. As long as the=0D= =0Acontent is freely accessible to all, then using the Wiki is free=0D=0A(p= erhaps within certain limits of space and bandwidth) and I sell=0D=0Aadvert= ising to pay for that part of the hosting business just like=0D=0AGoogle an= d Geocities.=0D=0A=0D=0ANow suppose that some people want to use the Wiki t= o communicate within=0D=0Aa group. Their Wiki is password protected. For th= is priviledge, I want=0D=0Ato charge a monthly fee. Another way to make thi= ngs easy for people and=0D=0Amaybe make a buck or two.=0D=0A=0D=0ASo far, s= o good, but the question is how to discourage other people from=0D=0Adoing = the same, and reducing the potential profitability of my hosting=0D=0Abusin= ess=3F=0D=0A=0D=0AI could put a proprietary version of the software on my s= erver that=0D=0Aadded the security features. I'm not sure that's allowed un= der a lot of=0D=0Aopen source licenses, but it is for my "personal" use, ev= en if it's=0D=0Ahosted on a web server that everyone can access. Does that = work under=0D=0Athe GPL conditions of changing code for your own internal p= ersonal use=0D=0Aas long as it isn't distributed or sold=3F=0D=0A=0D=0AI kn= ow I couldn't keep anyone from changing the code themselves to add=0D=0Apas= sword protection on their own servers, at least under any OSI=0D=0Aapproved= license. Anyone who wants to go to that extent is more than=0D=0Awelcome t= o do so. But could I protect that feature by saying, "If you=0D=0Awant to a= dd that feature, you're going to have to fork the project and=0D=0Agive it = a new name. I'm not adding it to Project X."=3F=0D=0A=0D=0AIs this viable=3F= In keeping with the spirit of open source=3F I welcome=0D=0Ayour suggestio= ns as to whether this is workable under the GPL, and any=0D=0Aalternative m= echanism to keep the feature out of the main GPL code.=0D=0A=0D=0AI appreci= ate the vibrant discussion on this list, and await the slapping=0D=0Aof fis= h anxiously. :-)=0D=0A=0D=0A-Kelly=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A= E-Mail messages may contain viruses, worms, or other malicious code. By rea= ding the message and opening any attachments, the recipient accepts full re= sponsibility for taking protective action against such code. Sender is not = liable for any loss or damage arising from this message.=0D=0A=0D=0AThe inf= ormation in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It i= s intended solely for the addressee(s). Access to this e-mail by anyone els= e is unauthorized.=0D=0A From fsb-return-10132-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Fri Jul 22 06:06:27 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 7778 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2005 06:06:26 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 22 Jul 2005 06:06:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 12190 invoked by alias); 22 Jul 2005 06:06:02 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 12170 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2005 06:06:00 -0000 X-Authenticated: #163624 Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:10:35 +0200 From: "A. Pagaltzis" To: fsb@crynwr.com Subject: Re: OT: Carriage return inserts in MS Exchange email -- fix? Message-ID: <20050722061035.GA25570@klangraum> Mail-Followup-To: fsb@crynwr.com References: <20050720225949.GD16245@localhost> <20050721234130.GA21872@klangraum> <20050722015044.GA22962@klangraum> <20050722023305.GB13892@localhost> <20050720225949.GD16245@localhost> <20050721234130.GA21872@klangraum> <20050722012158.GA13892@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20050722023305.GB13892@localhost> <20050722012158.GA13892@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N * Karsten M. Self [2005-07-22 04:40]: > on Fri, Jul 22, 2005 at 01:41:30AM +0200, A. Pagaltzis (pagaltzis@gmx.de) wrote: > > I???ve had the same problem for a while. > > Yes, and interesting quotes you've got.... They’re curly quotes, encoded as UTF-8, just as my headers declare. Don’t blame *me* if your MUA can’t handle that. :-) > > Another annoyance is that he is one of the few frequent > > posters on the list who uses a MUA that does not supply > > threading headers (In-Reply-To, References). > > Yep. I'm rethreading his mails, also manually. Good to know I’m not the only one who is so obsessive about that. :-) > Apparently webmail's out of the question, though I suspect > gmail might fix much of this brain-deadedness. Gmail would fix all these problems, indeed. So would Yahoo!Mail, in fact, as well as a surprising number of other web-based freemailers, despite their lack of Googlesque focus on threading. * Karsten M. Self [2005-07-22 04:40]: > :0 fhw > | $FORMAIL -R "Content-Type:" "X-Original-Content-Type:" > > :0 fhw > | $FORMAIL -a "Content-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"; format=\"flowed\"" Note that if you simply use `-i`, then the original header will be preserved, prefixed with `Old-`. Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // From fsb-return-10133-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Fri Jul 22 06:20:54 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 10499 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2005 06:20:54 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 22 Jul 2005 06:20:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 14391 invoked by alias); 22 Jul 2005 06:19:19 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 14362 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2005 06:19:14 -0000 To: fsb@crynwr.com Subject: Re: OT: Carriage return inserts in MS Exchange email -- fix? References: <20050720225949.GD16245@localhost> <20050721234130.GA21872@klangraum> <20050722015044.GA22962@klangraum> <20050722023305.GB13892@localhost> <20050720225949.GD16245@localhost> <20050721234130.GA21872@klangraum> <20050722012158.GA13892@localhost> <20050722061035.GA25570@klangraum> Organization: The XEmacs Project From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 15:19:09 +0900 In-Reply-To: <20050722061035.GA25570@klangraum> (A. Pagaltzis's message of "Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:10:35 +0200") Message-ID: <87pstb7482.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) XEmacs/21.5 (corn, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N >>>>> "A" == A Pagaltzis writes: A> They$B!G(Bre curly quotes, encoded as UTF-8, just as my headers A> declare. Don$B!G(Bt blame *me* if your MUA can$B!G(Bt handle that. :-) *My* MUA handles them just fine. In email, though, I think they're really ugly, they remind me of Bill. :-) -- School of Systems and Information Engineering http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp University of Tsukuba Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN Ask not how you can "do" free software business; ask what your business can "do for" free software. From fsb-return-10134-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Fri Jul 22 06:59:33 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 19939 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2005 06:59:33 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 22 Jul 2005 06:59:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 22639 invoked by alias); 22 Jul 2005 06:59:12 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 22633 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2005 06:59:11 -0000 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 23:58:33 -0700 From: "Karsten M. Self" To: fsb@crynwr.com Subject: Further OT: fonts (was Re: OT: Carriage return inserts in MS Exchange email -- fix?) Message-ID: <20050722065833.GA23696@localhost> Mail-Followup-To: fsb@crynwr.com References: <20050720225949.GD16245@localhost> <20050721234130.GA21872@klangraum> <20050722015044.GA22962@klangraum> <20050722023305.GB13892@localhost> <20050720225949.GD16245@localhost> <20050721234130.GA21872@klangraum> <20050722012158.GA13892@localhost> <20050722061035.GA25570@klangraum> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="k1lZvvs/B4yU6o8G" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050722061035.GA25570@klangraum> X-Debian-GNU-Linux: Rocks X-no-disclaimers: All email disclaimers are specifically and explicitly rejected: http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/stupid-disclaimers/ X-Kuro5hin-cabal: There is no K5 cabal X-GPG-Fingerprint: 5CAA 226D 2CCC 0A2A A502 D09E 79F1 BCE3 8DE4 D38E X-uptime: 22:05:05 up 7:49, 8 users, load average: 1.16, 1.03, 0.85 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Sender: "Karsten M. Self" X-ELNK-Trace: fb8b5507a77b41ab6f36dc87813833b2494a2b12faa40c4310a78ca67130109d1ca9be2bbac95284350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.81.220.60 X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N --k1lZvvs/B4yU6o8G Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable on Fri, Jul 22, 2005 at 08:10:35AM +0200, A. Pagaltzis (pagaltzis@gmx.de) w= rote: > * Karsten M. Self [2005-07-22 04:40]: > > on Fri, Jul 22, 2005 at 01:41:30AM +0200, A. Pagaltzis (pagaltzis@gmx.d= e) wrote: > > > I???ve had the same problem for a while. > >=20 > > Yes, and interesting quotes you've got....=20 >=20 > They???re curly quotes, encoded as UTF-8, just as my headers > declare. Don???t blame *me* if your MUA can???t handle that. :-) I think my MTA's fine. And I think my terminal (urxvt) is fine. It's likely X fonts. I'm using 7x13, which is an alias of -misc-fixed-medium-r-normal--13-120-75-75-c-70-iso8859-1 Gotta love X and fonts and unicode and ...=20 Trying a few obvious things (setting locale, other tricks...). Hrm. Well, I can get 'em to go from '???' to an 'a-hat'. =20 > > Apparently webmail's out of the question, though I suspect > > gmail might fix much of this brain-deadedness. >=20 > Gmail would fix all these problems, indeed. So would Yahoo!Mail, > in fact, as well as a surprising number of other web-based > freemailers, despite their lack of Googlesque focus on threading. >=20 > * Karsten M. Self [2005-07-22 04:40]: > > :0 fhw > > | $FORMAIL -R "Content-Type:" "X-Original-Content-Type:" > >=20 > > :0 fhw > > | $FORMAIL -a "Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D\"iso-8859-1\"; form= at=3D\"flowed\"" >=20 > Note that if you simply use `-i`, then the original header will > be preserved, prefixed with `Old-`. =20 Hrm. That's a point. I like X-headers myself, as they're pretty much assured safe. Peace. --=20 Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it. - Donald Knuth --k1lZvvs/B4yU6o8G Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC4JkZefG8443k044RAq+GAKCLCb4p7lgiJ1LdRRicQnf8ZYpeNwCeKWe0 DIL6EDxiz3Ghj5Jd07PVoko= =EZ6m -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --k1lZvvs/B4yU6o8G-- From fsb-return-10135-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Fri Jul 22 16:01:17 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 37264 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2005 16:01:17 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 22 Jul 2005 16:01:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 8514 invoked by alias); 22 Jul 2005 11:44:54 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 8505 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2005 11:44:52 -0000 Message-ID: <42E0DC23.60005@apache.org> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 13:44:35 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Rapha=EBl_Luta?= Organization: ASF User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Anderson, Kelly" Cc: fsb@crynwr.com Subject: Re: Hypothetical Business Plan References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at enst.fr X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Anderson, Kelly wrote: > Suppose that I want to host Wikis. I write open source software (or > perhaps semi-open source software) to create the Wiki. As long as the > content is freely accessible to all, then using the Wiki is free > (perhaps within certain limits of space and bandwidth) and I sell > advertising to pay for that part of the hosting business just like > Google and Geocities. > > Now suppose that some people want to use the Wiki to communicate within > a group. Their Wiki is password protected. For this priviledge, I want > to charge a monthly fee. Another way to make things easy for people and > maybe make a buck or two. > > So far, so good, but the question is how to discourage other people from > doing the same, and reducing the potential profitability of my hosting > business? > > I could put a proprietary version of the software on my server that > added the security features. I'm not sure that's allowed under a lot of > open source licenses, but it is for my "personal" use, even if it's > hosted on a web server that everyone can access. Does that work under > the GPL conditions of changing code for your own internal personal use > as long as it isn't distributed or sold? > If you're the copyright owner you're not bound to the GPL licence, since *you* are licensing the software to other people. A lot of dual-licence commercial entities do that. > I know I couldn't keep anyone from changing the code themselves to add > password protection on their own servers, at least under any OSI > approved license. Anyone who wants to go to that extent is more than > welcome to do so. But could I protect that feature by saying, "If you > want to add that feature, you're going to have to fork the project and > give it a new name. I'm not adding it to Project X."? > > Is this viable? In keeping with the spirit of open source? I welcome > your suggestions as to whether this is workable under the GPL, and any > alternative mechanism to keep the feature out of the main GPL code. > > I appreciate the vibrant discussion on this list, and await the slapping > of fish anxiously. :-) > You can do what you want, but the most likely threat is that the fork will be more successful that your own software and you're not going to get any marketshare, little community and little profit. [For an open-source wiki based business model, you can go and check http://www.xwiki.com/] -- Raphaël Luta - raphael@apache.org Apache Portals - Enterprise Portal in Java http://portals.apache.org/ From fsb-return-10136-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Fri Jul 22 16:13:25 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 48734 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2005 16:13:25 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 22 Jul 2005 16:13:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 12486 invoked by alias); 22 Jul 2005 12:00:55 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 12429 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2005 12:00:37 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 04:57:53 -0700 From: Don Marti To: fsb@crynwr.com Subject: Re: Hypothetical Business Plan Message-ID: <20050722115753.GA19866@zgp.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Message-Flag: No word processor attachments. Plain text only. User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N begin Anderson, Kelly quotation of Thu, Jul 21, 2005 at 11:05:48PM -0600: > So far, so good, but the question is how to discourage other people from > doing the same, and reducing the potential profitability of my hosting > business? Ebay didn't discourage everyone else from doing auctions. They just did it first, and they're where the users are. In the long run, user experience is a better way of keeping users than legal terms. > I could put a proprietary version of the software on my server that > added the security features. I'm not sure that's allowed under a lot of > open source licenses, but it is for my "personal" use, even if it's > hosted on a web server that everyone can access. Does that work under > the GPL conditions of changing code for your own internal personal use > as long as it isn't distributed or sold? Yes. Of course you should get a lawyer to check out any legal documents relevant to your business, but lots of companies do this. Google doesn't have to publish any in-house modifications they do to Linux, for example. > I know I couldn't keep anyone from changing the code themselves to add > password protection on their own servers, at least under any OSI > approved license. Anyone who wants to go to that extent is more than > welcome to do so. But could I protect that feature by saying, "If you > want to add that feature, you're going to have to fork the project and > give it a new name. I'm not adding it to Project X."? Sounds like a trademark is what you want. See "Red Hat Enterprise Linux" -- code is Open Source, trademark is restricted. -- Don Marti http://zgp.org/~dmarti/ dmarti@zgp.org From fsb-return-10137-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Fri Jul 22 16:17:13 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 53837 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2005 16:17:13 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 22 Jul 2005 16:17:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 537 invoked by alias); 22 Jul 2005 16:16:45 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 525 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2005 16:16:44 -0000 To: fsb@crynwr.com In-reply-to: (KAnderson@dentrix.com) Subject: Re: Hypothetical Business Plan References: Message-Id: From: Joe Corneli Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:16:41 -0500 X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N So far, so good, but the question is how to discourage other people from doing the same, and reducing the potential profitability of my hosting business? The only way to do it as 100% free software would be to provide the best service. This could keep you pretty busy :). I could put a proprietary version of the software on my server that added the security features. Um, or you could do that. I'm not sure that's allowed under a lot of open source licenses, but it is for my "personal" use, even if it's hosted on a web server that everyone can access. Yes, it is allowed. But... "Freedom" as applies to web services is sort of a grey area, i.e., I think I have more liberal views on this topic than RMS. ;) My feeling is that the free software movement should include FAIF web services as one of its desiderata. But for some reason this idea meets with serious resistance. Is this viable? In keeping with the spirit of open source? It depends on how spirited you feel. Joe From fsb-return-10138-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Fri Jul 22 17:30:26 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 92738 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2005 17:30:26 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 22 Jul 2005 17:30:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 8986 invoked by alias); 22 Jul 2005 16:56:38 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 8961 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2005 16:56:30 -0000 To: Joe Corneli Cc: fsb@crynwr.com Subject: Re: Hypothetical Business Plan References: Organization: The XEmacs Project From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 01:56:24 +0900 In-Reply-To: (Joe Corneli's message of "Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:16:41 -0500") Message-ID: <87u0imwzif.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) XEmacs/21.5 (corn, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N >>>>> "Joe" == Joe Corneli writes: >> I'm not sure that's allowed under a lot of open source >> licenses, but it is for my "personal" use, even if it's hosted >> on a web server that everyone can access. Joe> Yes, it is allowed. Under the GPL, yes. There are OSI-certified licenses that restrict internal "deployment" in some way, however, such as some versions of Apple's license. **** I have to say that I can't get up much enthusiasm for a business plan that depends on keeping the implementation of user-visible features obscure. Eg, consider Amazon's "one-click shopping". They protected _that_ with a patent, and they had to---any half-decent web designer could implement that once the importance of the idea was clear. Ditto RSA. On the other hand, Karmarkar gave the same solutions that all the other LP solvers did---just a factor of 100 times faster. Didn't need a patent for that, although he eventually did get one---for an algorithm variant he wasn't actually using in the consulting business! (According to a colleague who might very well know, but she had had a lot of wine....) This doesn't mean that a collection of user-visible features can't give you an advantage, but it's a matter of getting a head start in the Red Queen's Race. -- School of Systems and Information Engineering http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp University of Tsukuba Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN Ask not how you can "do" free software business; ask what your business can "do for" free software. From fsb-return-10139-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Sat Jul 23 20:08:36 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 27020 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2005 20:08:35 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 23 Jul 2005 20:08:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 14642 invoked by alias); 23 Jul 2005 20:08:02 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 14631 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2005 20:07:59 -0000 Subject: Option & Software Pricing From: Laurent GUERBY To: fsb@crynwr.com Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 22:07:53 +0200 Message-Id: <1122149273.22296.20.camel@pc.site> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.2.1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Ovh-Remote: 82.235.162.148 (gut75-4-82-235-162-148.fbx.proxad.net) X-Ovh-Local: 213.186.33.20 (ns0.ovh.net) X-Spam-Check: fait|type 1&3|0.0|H 0.500127 X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N Link from /., interesting point of view on software license/maintenance pricing with an eye of FOSS by Robert Lefkowitz: http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2005/07/21/software_pricing.html << [...] At this point, the astute reader will have noticed that the sum of the value of the option for the upgrades plus the options for the maintenance is $18.80 + $62.50 = $81.30. That is to say, our $100 software license consists of $18.70 for the value of the actual software and $81.30 for options on future maintenance and enhancements. [...] Therefore, the major difference in worldview between open source advocates and proprietary software license advocates is explainable as a differing opinion on the correct value of the volatility of maintenance and upgrade pricing. People who believe that the pricing on maintenance is stable and unlikely to change see greater intrinsic value in the software. People who fear that the pricing is subject to large fluctuations see no intrinsic value in the up-front license; stripped of the options, the license value approaches $0. For the open source movement, perhaps a better way to position the change that OSS is making is this: we're converting warrants on future maintenance and enhancements into options, which means that instead of having a sole supplier (warrants), we have created a third-party market (options) of these derivatives. How capitalistic is that? >> Laurent From fsb-return-10140-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Sun Jul 24 21:03:54 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 93733 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2005 21:03:54 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 24 Jul 2005 21:03:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 7890 invoked by alias); 24 Jul 2005 21:02:58 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 7877 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2005 21:02:56 -0000 Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2005 14:02:42 -0700 From: "Karsten M. Self" To: Free Software Business Subject: Re: support for a small US college going GNU? Message-ID: <20050724210242.GA12093@localhost> Mail-Followup-To: Free Software Business References: <20050719211214.GC2068@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="zYM0uCDKw75PZbzx" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Debian-GNU-Linux: Rocks X-no-disclaimers: All email disclaimers are specifically and explicitly rejected: http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/stupid-disclaimers/ X-Kuro5hin-cabal: There is no K5 cabal X-GPG-Fingerprint: 5CAA 226D 2CCC 0A2A A502 D09E 79F1 BCE3 8DE4 D38E X-uptime: 13:45:11 up 2 days, 23:29, 10 users, load average: 1.53, 1.55, 1.38 User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Sender: "Karsten M. Self" X-ELNK-Trace: fb8b5507a77b41ab6f36dc87813833b2494a2b12faa40c43dc39c28e3de0a6de9270c70581c26333350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.81.223.160 X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N --zYM0uCDKw75PZbzx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable on Wed, Jul 20, 2005 at 10:31:10AM -0600, Anderson, Kelly (KAnderson@dentri= x.com) wrote: > That's exactly what Citrix does. You might also look at the Gotomypc > thing that Citrix just bought. >=20 > You have to have a little bit of a frame even if it doesn't show. Citrix apparently *really* needs to do a better job marketing. I _try_ to stay reasonably on top of this stuff, but am pretty much fully unaware of their services. It's not just them: proprietary tech companies in general do a piss-poor job of pimping their goods. It's a bit like a more obscure area of highly tuned academic study. If you've invested a decade or two grokking the stuff, it's self-evident. If you haven't, you'll never understand. And most of the value seems to be "we've got you locked in, pay $$ and sign on the dotted line". How about a nice, basic introduction to what Citrix does? Peace. --=20 Karsten M. Self http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? It would never do for the Chief of Police to be found drinking after hours and have to fine himself. - Casablanca --zYM0uCDKw75PZbzx Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC5AHyefG8443k044RAsazAJ9h7RiqgLzVouc8GsMOOzgOxEWe0ACeNZ+z X0+TdTFUUYmytrz/2uVB5po= =umas -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --zYM0uCDKw75PZbzx-- From fsb-return-10141-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Fri Jul 29 06:30:03 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 36085 invoked from network); 29 Jul 2005 06:30:03 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 29 Jul 2005 06:30:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 23833 invoked by alias); 29 Jul 2005 06:29:23 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 23797 invoked from network); 29 Jul 2005 06:29:13 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=qL6VTVhY4yojU3JaCOVbWZoQxSaNJssgfQzwPtT9rcdfczz6dgJScxC5GcBxMT+xvTUrjxaCMAObWomK6t29Y4/rvlCoSsfk8Bn/aRdCdfEI831ybOrdtnvewQ0rhZHUKFrhlHpOVQqjwkZ43lWeM60BNuvI+ObMxbD58KLWkns= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 23:28:43 -0700 From: Ben Tilly Reply-To: Ben Tilly To: fsb@crynwr.com Subject: Meeting at OSCON? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N I'll be at OSCON this year (get in Tues night, leave Fri night). I'm sure that others of us will be there as well. Is anyone interested in getting together? Thanks, Ben From fsb-return-10142-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Sat Jul 30 23:04:20 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 92206 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2005 23:04:20 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 30 Jul 2005 23:04:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 30354 invoked by alias); 30 Jul 2005 23:03:20 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 30311 invoked from network); 30 Jul 2005 23:03:14 -0000 To: fsb@crynwr.com Subject: Account Review Team From: PayPal Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 02:03:06 +0300 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - 1n6-153.servernode.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - crynwr.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [99 99] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - email.paypal.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N

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From fsb-return-10143-brian-fsb-archive=taz3.hyperreal.org@crynwr.com Mon Aug 01 06:21:26 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: brian-fsb-archive@taz3.hyperreal.org Received: (qmail 86713 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2005 06:21:26 -0000 Received: from ns1.crynwr.com (192.203.178.14) by taz3.hyperreal.org with SMTP; 1 Aug 2005 06:21:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 10383 invoked by alias); 1 Aug 2005 06:20:47 -0000 Mailing-List: contact fsb-help@crynwr.com; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk X-No-Archive: yes List-Post: List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe: Delivered-To: mailing list fsb@crynwr.com Received: (qmail 10367 invoked from network); 1 Aug 2005 06:20:41 -0000 To: Laurent GUERBY Cc: fsb@crynwr.com Subject: Re: Option & Software Pricing References: <1122149273.22296.20.camel@pc.site> Organization: The XEmacs Project From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 15:20:18 +0900 In-Reply-To: <1122149273.22296.20.camel@pc.site> (Laurent GUERBY's message of "Sat, 23 Jul 2005 22:07:53 +0200") Message-ID: <87slxu2n6l.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1006 (Gnus v5.10.6) XEmacs/21.5 (corn, linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Rating: taz3.hyperreal.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N >>>>> "Laurent" == Laurent GUERBY writes: Laurent> http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2005/07/21/software_pricing.html Interesting, but the model is almost pessimally bogus. It assumes that value = price, which is true at the margin, but false (ie, an underestimate of value) for almost all purchasers.[1] Furthermore, for many software products which are purchased in exactly quantity one (1), this underestimate can be arbitrarily large for *all* purchasers. More important (and this is a mistake that finance experts make all the time when they stray into economics), the policy discussion simply ignores the effect of licensing and pricing on _supply-side_ incentives. But that's what the whole argument is about! (except for the irredeemably greedy on both sides who merely want something for nothing). RL> For the open source movement, perhaps a better way to position RL> the change that OSS is making is this: we're converting RL> warrants on future maintenance and enhancements into options, RL> which means that instead of having a sole supplier (warrants), RL> we have created a third-party market (options) of these RL> derivatives. *chuckle* If that wording doesn't scare CTOs off of OSS, nothing will! (Last I heard, CTOs and CFOs were natural enemies. :^) RL> How capitalistic is that? Do CTOs care about "capitalism"? Footnotes: [1] The idea underlying the arbitrage model of option pricing (aka Black-Scholes) is that for derivatives of financial assets, it _does_ make sense to assume that the only real good is money[sic], all traders are risk-neutral and monotone in money, and that volatility is objective. Those three assumptions mean that _all_ traders have the same preferences for the option, and if the price is "wrong", the option will be untradable (either everybody wants to sell it, or everybody wants to buy it). That does not sound like a software maintenance contract to me! -- School of Systems and Information Engineering http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp University of Tsukuba Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN Ask not how you can "do" free software business; ask what your business can "do for" free software.